• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Payrolls in U.S. Climb 227,000; Jobless Rate Holds at 8.3%

pbrauer

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
25,394
Reaction score
7,208
Location
Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
While the unemployment rate is still at 8.3%, it seems as though an honest recovery is taking place. There has been 24 months of straight private sector growth. There were 233K private sector jobs created in Feb, but a loss of 6K in the public sector brought the total down to 227K jobs.

Payrolls in U.S. Climb 227,000; Jobless Rate Holds at 8.3% - Bloomberg

"Employers in the U.S. boosted payrolls more than forecast in February, capping the best six- month streak of job growth since 2006 and sending stocks higher.

The 227,000 increase followed a revised 284,000 gain in January that was bigger than first estimated, Labor Department figures showed today in Washington. The median projection of economists in a Bloomberg News survey called for a 210,000 rise. The jobless rate held at 8.3 percent, even as 476,000 more workers sought employment.[...]​
 
While the unemployment rate is still at 8.3%, it seems as though an honest recovery is taking place. There has been 24 months of straight private sector growth. There were 233K private sector jobs created in Feb, but a loss of 6K in the public sector brought the total down to 227K jobs.

Payrolls in U.S. Climb 227,000; Jobless Rate Holds at 8.3% - Bloomberg
"Employers in the U.S. boosted payrolls more than forecast in February, capping the best six- month streak of job growth since 2006 and sending stocks higher.

The 227,000 increase followed a revised 284,000 gain in January that was bigger than first estimated, Labor Department figures showed today in Washington. The median projection of economists in a Bloomberg News survey called for a 210,000 rise. The jobless rate held at 8.3 percent, even as 476,000 more workers sought employment.[...]​

The silence from the "we are all doomed crowd" is deafening.
 
They're all over at intrade placing bets on Obama.

The odds must be akin to playing the lottery after this latest jobs number.
 
The silence from the "we are all doomed crowd" is deafening.
Seriously, I think the folks on the Right are looking for bad news. In the last 2 years businesses have added nearly 4 million jobs. And Romney continues to say Obama made the recession worse.
 
Seriously, I think the folks on the Right are looking for bad news. In the last 2 years businesses have added nearly 4 million jobs. And Romney continues to say Obama made the recession worse.
I don't understand... you say the folks on the Right are looking for bad news... and then you tell us bad news in the very next sentence - that job growth can't even keep up with growth in the population. Yes, we have an "honest recovery" by definition of the term. A horribly anemic, limp-wristed recovery, but an honest one.


Psst.... In this economy, the folks on the Right are looking for any good news they can get after months and months of hearing "at least we aren't freefalling anymore."
 
Token rightie here. I'll be the first to say this is good news (like I do on every single one of these threads). It's interesting as you see the U3 rate hold steady while the LFRP, E-P, and U6 numbers all improved. The main contention with previous releases was that the improvement in U3 was driven by a deterioration in the LFPR. The fact U3 didn't increase given the higher labor force participation is definitely a good thing.

Now, if I'm forced to play devil's advocate and be as pessimistic as possible I would point to... nothing. It all looks pretty sweet. Of course zerohedge is bearish on it but they would find a pimple on an angel. Here is their take:

The Part-Time Economy (Redux) | ZeroHedge
https://twitter.com/#!/zerohedge/status/178265087889514496

Another analysis by a bear site:

charles hugh smith-Weblog and Essays

That said I'm surprised the market reacted so meekly.
 
Seriously, I think the folks on the Right are looking for bad news. In the last 2 years businesses have added nearly 4 million jobs. And Romney continues to say Obama made the recession worse.

Any party that is seeking election will downplay good economic news under the incumbent. The left did the same thing under Bush. The fact this recovery has been so weak just gives Republicans a campaign platform to run on.
 
They're all over at intrade placing bets on Obama.

Were gonna miss conservative...this would be right in his wheelhouse.:(
 
Definitely good news. I hope it continues so people can get back to work and take care of themselves and their families.
 
The silence from the "we are all doomed crowd" is deafening.

I'll chime in and say that although I wish it were stronger, I am happy for those that found employment. Regardless of the election we need some hope these days.

J-mac

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
 
BofA's US Economic Weekly basically nails how I feel on the issue:

US Economic Weekly

First, and most commonly observed, the unemployment rate is not only capturing
changes in employment, but it is also measuring changes in labor force
participation ( Chart 1). The labor force participation rate measures the percent of
the working-age population that is either working or searching for employment.
There are two factors which determine the labor force participation rate:
demographics (such as baby boomers entering the early retirement years) and
the health of the economy (per ceptions of whether it is possible to find a job).
Since the recession began in December 2007, the labor force participation rate
has declined over 2.0pp to 63.9%, of which 1.2pp was due to population shifts
into age groups that tend to work less ( Table 1). Since we cannot fight the aging
process, the downward pressure from the aging population will continue.
But, we should expect at least part of the cyclical drop in the participation rate to
reverse as the labor market heals.
If t he current pace of job creation persists and
people start to perceive that there are greater job opportunities, discouraged
workers will return to the labor force. This includes many young adults who went
back to school rather than face a very tough job market. This means that as job
growth picks up, so will the participation ra te. That in turn means the drop in the
unemployment rate will slow even when job growth accelerates.

Second, not all unemployment is the same . Most of the gain in unemployment
comes from record high “long-term” unemployment. As Chart 2 shows, there are
a record number of people who are unemployed for greater than six months. In
contrast, the short-term unemployment rate has fallen sharply and returned to
normal levels. This suggests labor misallocation – those with certain skill sets can
find employment in short order while others can struggle with unemployment for
some time.

Finally, the unemployment rate does not capture the quality of jobs. For example,
it does not distinguish between full-time and part-time jobs. During the recession
there was a big increase in part-time workers, which has remained high. These
workers are counted as “employed” even though in reality they are half
unemployed. In addition, it does not provide information about the quality of jobs
in regards to compensation or skill se t. This all matters because the standard
inflation models use the unemployment ra te as a way to determine the amount of
slack in the economy, and hence wage pressu re. It is therefore useful to control
for these other factors when using slack models for inflation.

Bottom line: Don’t be surprised if the unemployment rate remains sticky even once job growth accelerates.

Second, there are often seasonal distortions. Poor weather conditions during the
survey week, such as a snow storm, will make it difficult for people to report to
work. If a non-salary worker does not receive compensation during the survey
week, it will count as a job loss. The BLS attempts to control for normal seasonal
swings, but sometimes that creates distortions by over-adjusting the data. This
may be playing a role in the recent data given the abnormally mild winter. As
Chart 3 shows, there were considerably fewer reports of people not reporting to
work as a result of the weather this winter. The average from December through
February this year was 170,000 workers compared to the historical average of
290,000 and clearly well below the last two years.


Simply looking at total job growth gives us a sense of how much more income is
being generated in the economy. However, it does not tell us how much more we
should be creating. The US population is steadily expanding, which means we
need to see a constant gain in jobs to simply keep up with the expanding labor
force. With population growth of nearly 1% a year, we need to see job gains of
about 110,000 a month just to meet the expanding population.
This is considered
the “breakeven” level for the unemployme nt rate. However, as discussed above,
the unemployment rate is also affected by changes in the participation rate. In this
cycle, the sharp drop in t he participation rate prevented a bigger rise in the
unemployment rate.

As such, a better way to look at the health of the job market is to look at the ratio
of employment to population (Chart 4).
Since the recession officially ended in
mid-2009, the employment -to-population ratio has been moving sideways. The
past few payroll reports helped to push it up only very marginally. This means that
household income will remain constrained and budgets will be tight.
Bottom line: job growth is still insufficient given expanding population. This will
keep household budgets and tax revenues constrained.

Bottom line: job growth is still insufficient given expanding population. This will keep household budgets and tax revenues constrained.

Taking all the favorite measures of the labor market into consideration, there are
clear indications of healing. However, we will be watching the post-winter data
very closely to see if the improvement is sustainable.
 
BofA's US Economic Weekly basically nails how I feel on the issue:

US Economic Weekly

I posted a link to a recent study by a Barclays economist in another thread showing that there is virtually no historical support for Bofa's theory. As it turns out, discouraged workers don't start streaming into the job market in sufficient numbers to affect U-3 unemployment in a significant way. Jobless rate falling faster than many predicted - ABC News

Of course that's not exactly good news for the economy, as it just means that labor force participation rate stays depressed.
 
Of course that's not exactly good news for the economy, as it just means that labor force participation rate stays depressed.
Unfortunately, there's little historical support for most anything associated with this recovery :stars:. We'd better hope that labor force participation turns around... the alternative is more of these unsustainable budget deficits (or...).
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately, there's little historical support for most anything associated with this recovery :stars:. We'd better hope that labor force participation turns around... the alternative is more of these unsustainable budget deficits (or...).

The reduced labor force participation rate is in large part the continuation of a long-term demographic trend, i.e. the aging of the baby boomers, that was probably somewhat masked by the real estate boom. So it's probably not going to continue to get worse before it gets better. It's just something we have to plan for as we address the SS and Medicare problems.
 
I posted a link to a recent study by a Barclays economist in another thread showing that there is virtually no historical support for Bofa's theory. As it turns out, discouraged workers don't start streaming into the job market in sufficient numbers to affect U-3 unemployment in a significant way. Jobless rate falling faster than many predicted - ABC News

Of course that's not exactly good news for the economy, as it just means that labor force participation rate stays depressed.

I'm sorry you're going to have to rephrase that.

The reduced labor force participation rate is in large part the continuation of a long-term demographic trend, i.e. the aging of the baby boomers, that was probably somewhat masked by the real estate boom. So it's probably not going to continue to get worse before it gets better. It's just something we have to plan for as we address the SS and Medicare problems.

No one is ignoring the demographic trend. It's the accelerated decline in the LFPR due to the weak economy that analysts refer to when talking about U3.

From BofA:

Since the recession began in December 2007, the labor force participation ratehas declined over 2.0pp to 63.9%, of which 1.2pp was due to population shiftsinto age groups that tend to work less (Table 1)
US Economic Weekly

From CBO:

The rate of participation in the labor force fell from 66 percent in 2007 to an average of 64 percent in the second half of 2011, an unusually large decline over so short a time. About a third of that decline reflects factors other than the downturn, such as the aging of the baby-boom generation. But even with those factors removed, the estimated decline in that rate during the past four years is larger than has been typical of past downturns, even after accounting for the greater severity of this downturn. Had that portion of the decline in the labor force participation rate since 2007 that is attributable to neither the aging of the baby boomers nor the downturn in the business cycle (on the basis of the experience in previous downturns) not occurred, the unemployment rate in the fourth quarter of 2011 would have been about 1¼ percentage points higher than the actual rate of 8.7 percent.

http://cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/01-31-2012_Outlook.pdf

From BLS:

At the same time, the labor force participation rate—the proportion of the population that is either employed or looking for work—for this group rose during much of the recession, before leveling off in recent months. (See chart 2.)

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ils/pdf/opbils81.pdf

LFPR by age CBO.JPG

The increase in the LFPR which caused U3 to remain unchanged in February is the case in point.
 
More jobs is great news. Its just not good enough to keep up with population growth. And if its at all related to the economics policies of the last 5 years it came at a great cost. The US will be paying off debt (and thus taxing citizens) for generations. The even larger size of govt will become the new baseline and will probably never go back to the relatively smaller govt of just a few years ago.
 
The silence from the "we are all doomed crowd" is deafening.

Not so.

With the continued effort of this Fool, Bobo, the Post Turtle, I find it amazing that the American economy is doing as well as it is.

The figure of 227,000 is good but it is a figure that still says we are losing ground. This economy needs to produce on average approximately 250,000 per month just to keep up with population growth. The reason the unemployment rate is static and not rising is that so many American would be workers have just given up and dropped out of the job hunt.

Recovery starts with the firing of 0bama.
 
Not so.

With the continued effort of this Fool, Bobo, the Post Turtle, I find it amazing that the American economy is doing as well as it is.

The figure of 227,000 is good but it is a figure that still says we are losing ground. This economy needs to produce on average approximately 250,000 per month just to keep up with population growth.

I've heard estimates of 125,000 jobs a month to keep up with population. I've also heard 250,000, but I can't find either from a very reliable source.
 
Any party that is seeking election will downplay good economic news under the incumbent. The left did the same thing under Bush. The fact this recovery has been so weak just gives Republicans a campaign platform to run on.

Yeah, you are correct on that.
 
I'm sorry you're going to have to rephrase that.

Better if you just read the cited article.


No one is ignoring the demographic trend. It's the accelerated decline in the LFPR due to the weak economy that analysts refer to when talking about U3.

The point of the Barclays study is that there is not much of an accelerated decline the LFPR, which is also supported by the Chart 2. graph you posted. The graph shows some acceleration in the 16 to 24 group, but that's not uncommon during a recession or down economy. Younger workers are often the first to be let go, and other may choose to stay in school longer when job opportunities are slim.

The increase in the LFPR which caused U3 to remain unchanged in February is the case in point.

Right, the argument is not that the effect doesn't exist at all, but rather that it has historically been exaggerated by economists and thus it probably still is being exaggerated by reports like the one from Bofa.
 
I've heard estimates of 125,000 jobs a month to keep up with population. I've also heard 250,000, but I can't find either from a very reliable source.

There are NO reliable sources. You have to do all the research yourself.

Example: The USA's population grew on the average by 2.8 million per year for the last ten years. Now you figure out how many jobs this economy needs to create to employ those.

Yes, I understand that census figures are government figures and are subject to manipulation.....hell, it's the government so lying is mandatory.
 
Better if you just read the cited article.

I read it. It would be nice if you could quote the relevant parts of the 4-page article and maybe link to the actual study itself.

The point of the Barclays study is that there is not much of an accelerated decline the LFPR, which is also supported by the Chart 2. graph you posted. The graph shows some acceleration in the 16 to 24 group, but that's not uncommon during a recession or down economy. Younger workers are often the first to be let go, and other may choose to stay in school longer when job opportunities are slim.

The point wasn't that the decline isn't accelerated, it's that the factors are more structural than cyclical. There is no denying that the decline has been accelerated:

ParticipationRateActualProjected.jpg

Calculated Risk: Comments on the Employment-Population Ratio

From what I've seen quoted from the Barclays study, Maki attributes 1.4% of the decline in the labor force to structural factors and 0.7% to cyclical factors. This is relatively close to the BofA economic letter and the CBO report. Regardless, it doesn't show "there is virtually no historical support for BofA's hypothesis". The Fed is also looking for an increase in the LFPR as a sign of an improving labor market:

Bernanke reflected the views of the Fed's expert staff. Economists at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York wrote in December that the decline in labor force participation during the recession was faster than the aging work force alone could explain, raising a chance that the percentage of potential workers actually seeking employment would rise by about a percentage point to 65% by next year.

Not to mention, the cyclical factors affecting the LFPR was just one of the many points BofA cited in their report. They remain just as skeptical as the economists surveyed in your article

This recovery's job growth is "not a big accomplishment, because the economy is so much bigger, and more people were put out of work," said Steven Ricchiuto, U.S. chief economist for Mizuho Securities. "There should be a stronger snapback."

USA TODAY's survey of 48 private economists in January found the median forecast was for 8.4% unemployment in the fourth quarter. The Congressional Budget Office predicted 8.9%, also in January. The Federal Reserve said Jan. 26 that its policymakers saw joblessness at 8.2% to 8.5% through the end of the year, a forecast Fed chairman Ben Bernanke reinforced when he appeared before Congress last week.

"The decline in the unemployment rate over the past year has been somewhat more rapid than might have been expected, given that the economy appears to have been growing during that time frame at or below its longer-term trend," Bernanke said. "Notwithstanding the better recent data, the job market remains far from normal."

Hell even Krugman says meh:

Meh. And I Say That With Feeling - NYTimes.com
It could have been worse, but the basic story remains the same as it has been for 2 1/2 years: an economy that’s growing, but not enough to feel anything like a real recovery. The measured unemployment rate has trended down for a while, but it’s all basically reduced numbers of people actively searching. My favorite measure these days is the employment-population ratio for prime-age workers, which isn’t affected by changing demography. Here it is for the past decade; see the trend since the recession officially ended? Neither do I.
 
I am going to make a prediction here, and I am going to allow for the possibility that it is wishful thinking on my part. But I believe that good economic news in March is going to come back and bit Obama in November. It is the sports equivalent of peaking too soon. Job growth will likely continue, not because of some wonderful central planning by Obama, but because we are in a cyclical recovery. The danger is that the job growth tails off from here. Hiring that is increasing at a decreasing rate will have the appearance of a slowing economy, which wont be good for Obama. The argument that Romney will have to make is that US job growth that barely keeps up with population gains has come at the cost of $6 trillion is new debt, higher prices for food and energy, bigger government, and higher taxes on the horizon.

Whether Romney can successfully articulate that message is another thing...
 
I am going to make a prediction here, and I am going to allow for the possibility that it is wishful thinking on my part. But I believe that good economic news in March is going to come back and bit Obama in November. It is the sports equivalent of peaking too soon. Job growth will likely continue, not because of some wonderful central planning by Obama, but because we are in a cyclical recovery. The danger is that the job growth tails off from here. Hiring that is increasing at a decreasing rate will have the appearance of a slowing economy, which wont be good for Obama. The argument that Romney will have to make is that US job growth that barely keeps up with population gains has come at the cost of $6 trillion is new debt, higher prices for food and energy, bigger government, and higher taxes on the horizon.

Whether Romney can successfully articulate that message is another thing...

YABUTT...its such fun to speculate eh?

Note the part of your post i bolded.:2wave:
 
Back
Top Bottom