'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to Flee

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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buck said:
I think you are so clouded by your biases, that you insist on continuing to argue something that I am not. did Obama's BC mandate allow an exception for ministerial staff at religious organizations, such as schools? If not, then the mandate is obviously violating first ammendment rights of religious organizations that employ ministerial staff.

Wether non-ministerial staff also qualify for the exception has not yet been determined. Many lower courts (and appeals courts) have ruled that they do. Until one of those cases, make it to the SC, all you can do is guess.

it doesn't matter whether it did or not, the point is the others will not be covered. Ministers and other clergy were never covered under it, and never would have been. But you and frankly the church seeks to reach beyond the church, to secular employees and to impose their beliefs on them. I suggest, we don't need to worry about ministers as if they believe this, they wouldn't use it anyway, and if they did, the church has bigger problems.

Also, there is a difference between ministerial staff, those charged with presenting the church message, advertise a contrary belief, and a non-ministerial staff merely doing the job they were hired to do. I actually think you are making the larger leap, as we both accept that the court has not ruled on this specific issue.

buck · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
it doesn't matter whether it did or not, the point is the others will not be covered. Ministers and other clergy were never covered under it, and never would have been. But you and frankly the church seeks to reach beyond the church, to secular employees and to impose their beliefs on them. I suggest, we don't need to worry about ministers as if they believe this, they wouldn't use it anyway, and if they did, the church has bigger problems.

Of course it matters. The employee that sued and lost in the USSC, was an employee of a school. She was not an employee of a church. You keep trying to make her an employee of a church. She wasn't. She was employed as a teacher at the school and is eactly the type of employee that HHS/Obama has ordered be given free access to BC through their insurance.

The government forcing religious institutions to provide BC against their beliefs to ministerial employees of religious institutions is violating first ammendment rights - which the religious instituion has clearly been found to have - at least in regards to ministerial employees.

Consequently, your whole argument that religious institutions do not have first ammendment rights is erroneous. The only question, at this point, is how far do those rights go.

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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buck said:
Of course it matters. The employee that sued and lost in the USSC, was an employee of a school. She was not an employee of a church. You keep trying to make her an employee of a church. She wasn't. She was employed as a teacher at the school and is eactly the type of employee that HHS/Obama has ordered be given free access to BC through their insurance.

The government forcing religious institutions to provide BC against their beliefs to ministerial employees of religious institutions is violating first ammendment rights - which the religious instituion has clearly been found to have - at least in regards to ministerial employees.

Consequently, your whole argument that religious institutions do not have first ammendment rights is erroneous. The only question, at this point, is how far do those rights go.

We are not disputing where she was an employee at. Her status, as ministerial is the important point. Religious schools have ministerial people, as do some hospitals, but the institution itself is not a church, nor did the ruling declare them equal. They made a huge distinction, and spent a lot of time on that distinction, that it was her role that separated her, not the institution. No where do they rule that schools or hospitals themselves are covered within this exemption. Only the ministerial staff, which I would have expected.

So no, they ruled nothing concerning the school, but only that those covered under ministerial status could be fired for advertising or support beliefs against the church, as the connection is direct. You are reading far too much into their ruling than is there.

buck · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
We are not disputing where she was an employee at. Her status, as ministerial is the important point. Religious schools have ministerial people, as do some hospitals, but the institution itself is not a church, nor did the ruling declare them equal. They made a huge distinction, and spent a lot of time on that distinction, that it was her role that separated her, not the institution. No where do they rule that schools or hospitals themselves are covered within this exemption. Only the ministerial staff, which I would have expected.

So no, they ruled nothing concerning the school, but only that those covered under ministerial status could be fired for advertising or support beliefs against the church, as the connection is direct. You are reading far too much into their ruling than is there.

So, we agree that religious institutions have first ammendment rights, at the very least in regards to their ministerial employees. Which brings up the question, that you seem to be refusing to answer... Did Obama's mandate on BC exempt ministerial staff at religious institutions? If not, then it would be a violation of the 1st amendment rights as found by the USSC.

j-mac · Mar 20, 2012

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It would seem that Boo is arguing for all those non ministerial employees to lose their jobs in favor of placing clergy ie; Nun's, and Deacons and such in their place....Otherwise he seems to essentially saying that these institutions become no more than the secular institutions that do the same thing....What more disrespect for religion can their be?

j-mac

Grant · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
There is virtually no chance of that.

There is every chance of it.

This is just the beginning, otherwise why bother..

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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Grant said:
There is every chance of it.

This is just the beginning, otherwise why bother..

No, there isn't. They would have to abandoned a primary mission, cut off their nose to spite their faces so speak. And no, slippery slopes are called a fallacy for a reason.

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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j-mac said:
It would seem that Boo is arguing for all those non ministerial employees to lose their jobs in favor of placing clergy ie; Nun's, and Deacons and such in their place....Otherwise he seems to essentially saying that these institutions become no more than the secular institutions that do the same thing....What more disrespect for religion can their be?

j-mac

That misses the point. They all have to teach religion course in which they preach the faith, be ministerial, and such is not likely let alone possible. As the courts noted, this particular person held a very duel role, and was not merely a teacher.

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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buck said:
So, we agree that religious institutions have first ammendment rights, at the very least in regards to their ministerial employees. Which brings up the question, that you seem to be refusing to answer... Did Obama's mandate on BC exempt ministerial staff at religious institutions? If not, then it would be a violation of the 1st amendment rights as found by the USSC.

No. Churches do. Those based solely on preaching, and ministers do, those who preach that message. This issue was one tasked with preaching the message going against that message to send another message, a completely different issue.

j-mac · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
That misses the point. They all have to teach religion course in which they preach the faith, be ministerial, and such is not likely let alone possible. As the courts noted, this particular person held a very duel role, and was not merely a teacher.

Yes, I understand the distinction you are trying very hard to set forth, however, what I see you doing in essence here is to say that these schools that parents (mine being one when I was young) send their children to these schools not only for the superior education, but for the link to the church as well. When you wall off the religion course from the rest of the school and say that outside that class they are to be no different than that of the PS in the same area, you are battling to take away the religious aspect of the education as a whole.

What I am saying, maybe not very well, is that why as a say, Catholic parent spend the tuition money to send my children to a Catholic school if it were only for the religion class? I could achieve the same thing by sending them to the secular school, and having them take extra classes at the church. And THAT is what I think is behind this, trying to marginalize the religious schools to bolster the public system, and ultimately destroy the competition.

j-mac

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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j-mac said:
Yes, I understand the distinction you are trying very hard to set forth, however, what I see you doing in essence here is to say that these schools that parents (mine being one when I was young) send their children to these schools not only for the superior education, but for the link to the church as well. When you wall off the religion course from the rest of the school and say that outside that class they are to be no different than that of the PS in the same area, you are battling to take away the religious aspect of the education as a whole.

What I am saying, maybe not very well, is that why as a say, Catholic parent spend the tuition money to send my children to a Catholic school if it were only for the religion class? I could achieve the same thing by sending them to the secular school, and having them take extra classes at the church. And THAT is what I think is behind this, trying to marginalize the religious schools to bolster the public system, and ultimately destroy the competition.

j-mac

My kids for a time go to a catholic school. The English teacher wasn't Catholic. Neither was the science teacher. The priests and nuns did the religion classes for the most part. And it was a school. Not a church. And many of the students were not Catholic. Sure, there were Catholic students, but many were not.

I can't stop any church from going into the business world, nor do I want to. That said, let's not pretend that a church making money makes them different than everyone else making money.

And while conspiracy theories make good drama, largely they are nonsense in the real world. Bush wasn't behind 9/11. Obama isn't a secret Muslim communist facist socialist born in Kenya. A there is no war against the church.

j-mac · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
My kids for a time go to a catholic school.

Why did they stop?

The English teacher wasn't Catholic. Neither was the science teacher.

So what?

The priests and nuns did the religion classes for the most part.

Ok, but that doesn't preclude that Priests, Nun's, Deacon's, or Brothers can't teach other classes....My Math teacher for example in the 6th grade was a Nun, as was my English teacher at Holy Cross.

And it was a school. Not a church.

It is tied to the religion. Also, I remember at times like Lent, Christmas, Easter, and so forth, there are times when the entire school was assembled in the Gym for Mass.

And many of the students were not Catholic. Sure, there were Catholic students, but many were not.

I don't get where you come up with this stuff....
according to a study done in 1992 enrollment in the Catholic school system was made up of 86% Catholic students, and 14% non Catholic students....Now granted that is up from say the 70s when the ratio was 97% to 3% but enrollment is also down in Catholic schools as well due to higher tuitions.

So I think I have to call Bull on your statement here.

I can't stop any church from going into the business world, nor do I want to. That said, let's not pretend that a church making money makes them different than everyone else making money.

Where do you think the money made from tuitions, and paid Hospital bills goes?

And while conspiracy theories make good drama, largely they are nonsense in the real world.

I thought I was careful to say that I don't know for a fact, but in case I didn't, I'll say it now....My opinion is that secular teacher unions, and school systems filled with career bureaucrats would love nothing better than to see the private religious school system disappear, and I don't put it past them to actively work toward that end.

Bush wasn't behind 9/11.

Who's talking about that?

Obama isn't a secret Muslim

Who said he was?

communist

Well?....possibly

facist

Tell that to the shareholders of GM and Chrysler stock that got screwed...

socialist

That is closer than outright communist for now.

born in Kenya.

Don't throw that Bull **** at me pal, I have NEVER said that he was, nor have I espoused that view.

A there is no war against the church.

Really? Think so do ya?

JPMorgan Chase is shutting down the Vatican’s bank account with its Milan branch due to a “lack of transparency,” according to Reuters.

JPMorgan Chase Closes Vatican Bank Account | Video | TheBlaze.com

Some would beg to differ.

j-mac

buck · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
No. Churches do. Those based solely on preaching, and ministers do, those who preach that message. This issue was one tasked with preaching the message going against that message to send another message, a completely different issue.

I certainly realize in your world it is. However, the USSC has found that a school has first ammendment rights when it comes to their ministrial teachers/employees.

Forcing the school to go against the school's religious beliefs (at least in relation to those minisitrial employees) is a violation of those rights.

Obama did not offer an exemption for ministral employees at religious institutions. How do you think that's going to go given the ruling the USSC provided.

Anyway, I think the point has been made. Feel free to justify owever you like.

poweRob · Mar 20, 2012

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PerfectStorm said:
Limbaugh Rejects Sleep Train After it Requests to be Advertiser Again | TheBlaze.com

Wow. Now he want's those advertisers to line up and pucker up to kiss his ass like a GOP member to get the privilege to spend money on his show?

Too funny.

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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buck said:
I certainly realize in your world it is. However, the USSC has found that a school has first ammendment rights when it comes to their ministrial teachers/employees.

Forcing the school to go against the school's religious beliefs (at least in relation to those minisitrial employees) is a violation of those rights.

Obama did not offer an exemption for ministral employees at religious institutions. How do you think that's going to go given the ruling the USSC provided.

Anyway, I think the point has been made. Feel free to justify owever you like.

No, that was not their ruling.

j-mac · Mar 20, 2012

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poweRob said:
Wow. Now he want's those advertisers to line up and pucker up to kiss his ass like a GOP member to get the privilege to spend money on his show?

Too funny.

His show reaches Millions of listeners...It isn't about kissing Limbaugh's anything, it is however about bang for the buck....

j-mac

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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j-mac said:
Why did they stop?

Moved and the public school was better where we moved to.

So what?

Not ministerial, and thus not exempt.

Ok, but that doesn't preclude that Priests, Nun's, Deacon's, or Brothers can't teach other classes....My Math teacher for example in the 6th grade was a Nun, as was my English teacher at Holy Cross.

Sure. And if they are ministerial, they would be exempt. Most are not.

It is tied to the religion. Also, I remember at times like Lent, Christmas, Easter, and so forth, there are times when the entire school was assembled in the Gym for Mass.

Not so much. The religious aspect is quite small.

I don't get where you come up with this stuff....
according to a study done in 1992 enrollment in the Catholic school system was made up of 86% Catholic students, and 14% non Catholic students....Now granted that is up from say the 70s when the ratio was 97% to 3% but enrollment is also down in Catholic schools as well due to higher tuitions.

Do you understand what I said. Don't confuse many with majority.

Where do you think the money made from tuitions, and paid Hospital bills goes?

Salaries and material and profit just as with any other business.

I thought I was careful to say that I don't know for a fact, but in case I didn't, I'll say it now....My opinion is that secular teacher unions, and school systems filled with career bureaucrats would love nothing better than to see the private religious school system disappear, and I don't put it past them to actively work toward that end.

Whether they would or not is irrelevant, and a distraction from the conversation.

Don't throw that Bull **** at me pal, I have NEVER said that he was, nor have I espoused that view.

You're skipping the point. Back up from the tree to see the forest.

Really? Think so do ya?

Know so.

Some would beg to differ.

j-mac

And you think that proves your point? I'm sorry J, but no it doesn't. Some just want to cloud issues for you.

The Mark · Mar 20, 2012

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poweRob said:
Wow. Now he want's those advertisers to line up and pucker up to kiss his ass like a GOP member to get the privilege to spend money on his show?

Too funny.

Frankly, I find it highly likely that however funny you find it, he is perfectly capable of doing so - and having advertisers "kiss his ass" to be allowed on.

I mean, after all, millions of people hear his show every day.

j-mac · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
Moved and the public school was better where we moved to.

Your choice ofcourse, however without knowing which schools you are speaking of we'd have to take your word for it, but I believe you to be able to make that decision.

Not ministerial, and thus not exempt.

Are the secular teachers forced to work there?

Sure. And if they are ministerial, they would be exempt. Most are not.

Again, these teachers are not forced to work at the religious school, or hospital. If they don't like the benefits that the employer offers then work somewhere else.

Not so much. The religious aspect is quite small.

Are you seriously trying to tell me what I did as a student in a Catholic school? You don't know what the hell you are talking about sir.

Do you understand what I said. Don't confuse many with majority.

Do you see between 3% and 14% as "many"? No wonder you use such vague language.

Salaries and material and profit just as with any other business.

And who get's that profit? What do they do with it?

Whether they would or not is irrelevant, and a distraction from the conversation.

It is very relevant, we must know who is attacking our religious institutions, and why.

You're skipping the point. Back up from the tree to see the forest.

I separated out your alpha-bit soup of stawmen for you...I see the forest whether you want to admit it or not.

Know so.

Seems that based on your comments here you know very little about it, rather working hard to build a narrative molded to your argument. That says much about you, but little of your supposed knowledge of anything.

And you think that proves your point? I'm sorry J, but no it doesn't. Some just want to cloud issues for you.

Proves it? no. But a war is a series of battle wins, this is just one battle in the war...See, your Alenski handbook of liberal tactics tells you to dismiss this as nothing, and say 'don't look there, look over here...' But you keep forgetting we are on to that BS.

j-mac

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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j-mac said:
Your choice ofcourse, however without knowing which schools you are speaking of we'd have to take your word for it, but I believe you to be able to make that decision.

Thanks.

Are the secular teachers forced to work there?

Nope. But most those schools would fall without them. These things are each dependent on the other.

Again, these teachers are not forced to work at the religious school, or hospital. If they don't like the benefits that the employer offers then work somewhere else.

And again, that doesn't matter.

Are you seriously trying to tell me what I did as a student in a Catholic school? You don't know what the hell you are talking about sir.

Nope, I'm going beyond you and I personally. I became a Catholic later, and as a Student, managed to ignore it completely. It was a small part of the day.

Do you see between 3% and 14% as "many"? No wonder you use such vague language.

Yes, it's more than one or two, which be few, and seven or eight which would be several. There are a lot of students in across the country, and 3% would constitute many. 14% more.

And who get's that profit? What do they do with it?

The Church, which does quite well.

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion. Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate. Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians.

Read more: Roman Catholics: The Vatican's Wealth - TIME

It is very relevant, we must know who is attacking our religious institutions, and why.

Do you know the meaning of the word paranoid?

I separated out your alpha-bit soup of stawmen for you...I see the forest whether you want to admit it or not.

No, you didn't. It would help if you knew what a strawman was. You apparently missed the point.

Seems that based on your comments here you know very little about it, rather working hard to build a narrative molded to your argument. That says much about you, but little of your supposed knowledge of anything.

Nope. That's just your dodge.

Proves it? no. But a war is a series of battle wins, this is just one battle in the war...See, your Alenski handbook of liberal tactics tells you to dismiss this as nothing, and say 'don't look there, look over here...' But you keep forgetting we are on to that BS.

j-mac

And the paranoid sees it everywhere.

j-mac · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
Nope. But most those schools would fall without them. These things are each dependent on the other.

Prove it....That is a pretty bold definitive statement with no back up Joe.

And again, that doesn't matter.

What the....? Ofcourse it matters....These people do NOT own their jobs...If they don't like it then find a different job.

Nope, I'm going beyond you and I personally. I became a Catholic later, and as a Student, managed to ignore it completely. It was a small part of the day.

That much is clear.

The Church, which does quite well.

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion. Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate. Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians.

Read more: Roman Catholics: The Vatican's Wealth - TIME

Appearently you don't think that these children, or poor need the Church's help?

Do you know the meaning of the word paranoid?

Many people see it as prepared....The charge of paranoia is made often right before the hammer falls.

No, you didn't. It would help if you knew what a strawman was. You apparently missed the point.

I know, I can only hope to one day be as smart as you Joe...:roll:

Nope. That's just your dodge.

What's that, doing that liberal thing of doing exactly what you charge me of doing Joe....Try another one.

And the paranoid sees it everywhere.

Oh, so now we are down to name calling...great...I guess this is the point where you start posting that stupid coffeepap smiley and repeating the same thing over and over for pages, and transcending threads to troll, and incite...Sorry, not playin', try that **** somewhere else....Night Joe. I'm grabbin' me a beer, and heading out to the pool to relax, and laugh at your postings.....:cheers:

j-mac

Boo Radley · Mar 20, 2012

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j-mac said:
Prove it....That is a pretty bold definitive statement with no back up Joe.

it's pretty simple j. If they could hire those who were of the faith and ministerial, why do they have so many who are not? Reasoning is support.

What the....? Ofcourse it matters....These people do NOT own their jobs...If they don't like it then find a different job.

Yu put much stock in ownership. The fact is the job belongs to both. If it did not, there would be no need to hire anyone. As I said, the two are interlocked, meshed, symbiotic.

That much is clear.

Yep.

Appearently you don't think that these children, or poor need the Church's help?

I never said that. But that's not all the money goes for. I listed the majority of the quote hoping you see all of it.

Many people see it as prepared....The charge of paranoia is made often right before the hammer falls.

Paranoid people?

I know, I can only hope to one day be as smart as you Joe...:roll:

Oh, you're smart enough. Like I've always told you, you just fill your head with questionable stuff.

W

hat's that, doing that liberal thing of doing exactly what you charge me of doing Joe....Try another one.

Nope. Just recognizing that you skipped that you advanced a point, and I countered it. So instead of addressing the counter, you pretended not to see the forest. A dodge as it were.

Oh, so now we are down to name calling...great...I guess this is the point where you start posting that stupid coffeepap smiley and repeating the same thing over and over for pages, and transcending threads to troll, and incite...Sorry, not playin', try that **** somewhere else....Night Joe. I'm grabbin' me a beer, and heading out to the pool to relax, and laugh at your postings.....:cheers:

j-mac

No name calling j. But when people see themselves as picked on all the time, that there's a conspiracy to get them, I think paranoia is the proper word. True, folks like O'Reilly see profit and fame for fanning such fires, sadly, but there woefully little evidence to support such fears. A changing world is not equal to an attack on you. There are places in the world where such fears are real, but not here.

buck · Mar 20, 2012

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Boo Radley said:
No, that was not their ruling.

Their ruling wasn't that the school have first ammendment rights? OK... You stick with that.

Caroline Mala Corbin, an associate professor of law at the University of Miami who is a co-author of that brief, issued a statement that said, "It is a shame that in its zeal to protect the rights of religious institutions, the Supreme Court ignored the rights of the religious individuals who work at those institutions."

Misterveritis · Mar 20, 2012

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rocket88 said:
The government probably shouldn't be paying for partisan political talk anyway. For either side.

Every served? Do those of us who serve lose all rights? Most of the places I deployed to only had armed forces radio and television. We were captives of our government. And you want the government to limit red blooded, patriotic Americans to a diet of Milquetoast. F**k You!

Let the real Americans decide. Those of you who are pantywaists can step aside. But I have no strong opinions.

Misterveritis · Mar 20, 2012

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Catawba said:
In the absence of any facts to back up your fascist perspective, your opinion lacks any credibility.

Oh Cat. You know you are a statis. You are probably a closet socialist as well. If nothing else you are consistently on the wrong side of every issue, and therefore on the wrong side of history.

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