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Thread: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to Flee

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I think you are so clouded by your biases, that you insist on continuing to argue something that I am not. did Obama's BC mandate allow an exception for ministerial staff at religious organizations, such as schools? If not, then the mandate is obviously violating first ammendment rights of religious organizations that employ ministerial staff.

    Wether non-ministerial staff also qualify for the exception has not yet been determined. Many lower courts (and appeals courts) have ruled that they do. Until one of those cases, make it to the SC, all you can do is guess.
    it doesn't matter whether it did or not, the point is the others will not be covered. Ministers and other clergy were never covered under it, and never would have been. But you and frankly the church seeks to reach beyond the church, to secular employees and to impose their beliefs on them. I suggest, we don't need to worry about ministers as if they believe this, they wouldn't use it anyway, and if they did, the church has bigger problems.

    Also, there is a difference between ministerial staff, those charged with presenting the church message, advertise a contrary belief, and a non-ministerial staff merely doing the job they were hired to do. I actually think you are making the larger leap, as we both accept that the court has not ruled on this specific issue.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    it doesn't matter whether it did or not, the point is the others will not be covered. Ministers and other clergy were never covered under it, and never would have been. But you and frankly the church seeks to reach beyond the church, to secular employees and to impose their beliefs on them. I suggest, we don't need to worry about ministers as if they believe this, they wouldn't use it anyway, and if they did, the church has bigger problems.
    Of course it matters. The employee that sued and lost in the USSC, was an employee of a school. She was not an employee of a church. You keep trying to make her an employee of a church. She wasn't. She was employed as a teacher at the school and is eactly the type of employee that HHS/Obama has ordered be given free access to BC through their insurance.

    The government forcing religious institutions to provide BC against their beliefs to ministerial employees of religious institutions is violating first ammendment rights - which the religious instituion has clearly been found to have - at least in regards to ministerial employees.

    Consequently, your whole argument that religious institutions do not have first ammendment rights is erroneous. The only question, at this point, is how far do those rights go.
    Last edited by buck; 03-20-12 at 02:48 PM.

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Of course it matters. The employee that sued and lost in the USSC, was an employee of a school. She was not an employee of a church. You keep trying to make her an employee of a church. She wasn't. She was employed as a teacher at the school and is eactly the type of employee that HHS/Obama has ordered be given free access to BC through their insurance.

    The government forcing religious institutions to provide BC against their beliefs to ministerial employees of religious institutions is violating first ammendment rights - which the religious instituion has clearly been found to have - at least in regards to ministerial employees.

    Consequently, your whole argument that religious institutions do not have first ammendment rights is erroneous. The only question, at this point, is how far do those rights go.
    We are not disputing where she was an employee at. Her status, as ministerial is the important point. Religious schools have ministerial people, as do some hospitals, but the institution itself is not a church, nor did the ruling declare them equal. They made a huge distinction, and spent a lot of time on that distinction, that it was her role that separated her, not the institution. No where do they rule that schools or hospitals themselves are covered within this exemption. Only the ministerial staff, which I would have expected.

    So no, they ruled nothing concerning the school, but only that those covered under ministerial status could be fired for advertising or support beliefs against the church, as the connection is direct. You are reading far too much into their ruling than is there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We are not disputing where she was an employee at. Her status, as ministerial is the important point. Religious schools have ministerial people, as do some hospitals, but the institution itself is not a church, nor did the ruling declare them equal. They made a huge distinction, and spent a lot of time on that distinction, that it was her role that separated her, not the institution. No where do they rule that schools or hospitals themselves are covered within this exemption. Only the ministerial staff, which I would have expected.

    So no, they ruled nothing concerning the school, but only that those covered under ministerial status could be fired for advertising or support beliefs against the church, as the connection is direct. You are reading far too much into their ruling than is there.
    So, we agree that religious institutions have first ammendment rights, at the very least in regards to their ministerial employees. Which brings up the question, that you seem to be refusing to answer... Did Obama's mandate on BC exempt ministerial staff at religious institutions? If not, then it would be a violation of the 1st amendment rights as found by the USSC.
    Last edited by buck; 03-20-12 at 03:20 PM.

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    It would seem that Boo is arguing for all those non ministerial employees to lose their jobs in favor of placing clergy ie; Nun's, and Deacons and such in their place....Otherwise he seems to essentially saying that these institutions become no more than the secular institutions that do the same thing....What more disrespect for religion can their be?


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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There is virtually no chance of that.
    There is every chance of it.

    This is just the beginning, otherwise why bother..

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    There is every chance of it.

    This is just the beginning, otherwise why bother..
    No, there isn't. They would have to abandoned a primary mission, cut off their nose to spite their faces so speak. And no, slippery slopes are called a fallacy for a reason.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It would seem that Boo is arguing for all those non ministerial employees to lose their jobs in favor of placing clergy ie; Nun's, and Deacons and such in their place....Otherwise he seems to essentially saying that these institutions become no more than the secular institutions that do the same thing....What more disrespect for religion can their be?


    j-mac
    That misses the point. They all have to teach religion course in which they preach the faith, be ministerial, and such is not likely let alone possible. As the courts noted, this particular person held a very duel role, and was not merely a teacher.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    So, we agree that religious institutions have first ammendment rights, at the very least in regards to their ministerial employees. Which brings up the question, that you seem to be refusing to answer... Did Obama's mandate on BC exempt ministerial staff at religious institutions? If not, then it would be a violation of the 1st amendment rights as found by the USSC.
    No. Churches do. Those based solely on preaching, and ministers do, those who preach that message. This issue was one tasked with preaching the message going against that message to send another message, a completely different issue.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 'Rush Limbaugh Show' Broadcasts Five Minutes of Dead Air as Sponsors Continue to

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That misses the point. They all have to teach religion course in which they preach the faith, be ministerial, and such is not likely let alone possible. As the courts noted, this particular person held a very duel role, and was not merely a teacher.
    Yes, I understand the distinction you are trying very hard to set forth, however, what I see you doing in essence here is to say that these schools that parents (mine being one when I was young) send their children to these schools not only for the superior education, but for the link to the church as well. When you wall off the religion course from the rest of the school and say that outside that class they are to be no different than that of the PS in the same area, you are battling to take away the religious aspect of the education as a whole.

    What I am saying, maybe not very well, is that why as a say, Catholic parent spend the tuition money to send my children to a Catholic school if it were only for the religion class? I could achieve the same thing by sending them to the secular school, and having them take extra classes at the church. And THAT is what I think is behind this, trying to marginalize the religious schools to bolster the public system, and ultimately destroy the competition.


    j-mac
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