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FDNY ordered to hire minorities

Sheesh, when will New Yorkers get over their racism?
 
Connery said:
The court is not determining the FDNY needs. They are making sure the civil rights of the parties are protected. Moreover, the judge does not sit at the bench and take the test to determine the propriety of the material, he relies on experts, administrative bodies, Special Masters and the like who provide their opinion to assist the judge in making a decision. I cited a situation which took place in the 1970's in an earlier post for reference.
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Sure they are. They're determining that the questions, which look pretty relevant to me, aren't related to being a firefighter, when FDNY says they are. Further, they're ruling based on the idea that the things covered in the test should or could be handled in on-the-job training and thus have no need to be on the test.

This is not an area for a court decide, no matter how many "experts" testify. This goes well beyond mere "discriminatory" practices. This gets inside the very training program itself.
 
justabubba said:
fortunately, the judge (as well as the EEOC) already evaluated the test and found it inappropriate as a basis to include/exclude FD candidates
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But what about it is inappropriate?????

Or can he even plainly state what is inappropriate besides some unrelated statistical anomaly?
 
justabubba said:
don't recall you taking this same position when the supreme court ruled the other way:
Court Rules For White Firefighters in Affirmative Action Case
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The firefighters who brought that case up were right.

They were disqualified on the basis that the test, again, was unfair to blacks.



I don't think there is a human being alive on the planet that can articulate to me how a test of knowledge required to be in a position can possibly be disadvantageous to a particular race over another. Unless one is pulling from assumptions of a particular race's abilities, or lacktherof, and then such an assumption would be racist, not the test.
 
justabubba said:
we see that black and hispanics achieve academically at far less rates than their demographic representation
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So? We have to dumb down professions in the name of "Equality"??? Im sorry, I don't want some idiot doing my taxes because the requirements for him to get his job was dumbed down so he could get the job because he is black and.... STATISTICALLY blacks achieve lower academically. I don't give a rats ass what your race is, if you were able to meet the standards, you can get the job. Lets not dumb down professions because we need to "be fair" and we make ASSumptions of ones ability based on their race.

so, it would not be surprising to learn that hispanic and black applicants failed the test in greater percentages than did whites (or that asians passed the test in greater percentages than whites)
but when looking at the exam being used, the EEOC and the federal court found that the test was not an accurate gauge of candidacy. thus, excluding those who failed the test may have excluded them wrongly
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And if that were the case, they would have been excluded wrongly on the basis of failing the test, whether they be white, black, or hispanic.

Simply put, a test can not be racist.

For us to say that The test was too hard, and thats why we weren't getting blacks or hispanics, is to make an assumption of the capabilities of another person based upon their race.

I would be pissed off if I were as intellectually capable as I am and I happened to be a black person and people were making the assumption that I am dumb due to my race.



The assumptions made by supporters of Affirmative Action sicken me.
 
Caine said:
So? We have to dumb down professions in the name of "Equality"??? Im sorry, I don't want some idiot doing my taxes because the requirements for him to get his job was dumbed down so he could get the job because he is black and.... STATISTICALLY blacks achieve lower academically. I don't give a rats ass what your race is, if you were able to meet the standards, you can get the job. Lets not dumb down professions because we need to "be fair" and we make ASSumptions of ones ability based on their race.

And if that were the case, they would have been excluded wrongly on the basis of failing the test, whether they be white, black, or hispanic.

Simply put, a test can not be racist.

For us to say that The test was too hard, and thats why we weren't getting blacks or hispanics, is to make an assumption of the capabilities of another person based upon their race.

I would be pissed off if I were as intellectually capable as I am and I happened to be a black person and people were making the assumption that I am dumb due to my race.



The assumptions made by supporters of Affirmative Action sicken me.
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the test can certainly be constructed with a bias

answer this question

in the black community, which flavor of soda is preferred

orange
grape
strawberry
cola
lemon-lime
colt 45 malt

let us know your answer
 
Harshaw said:
Sure they are. They're determining that the questions, which look pretty relevant to me, aren't related to being a firefighter, when FDNY says they are. Further, they're ruling based on the idea that the things covered in the test should or could be handled in on-the-job training and thus have no need to be on the test.

This is not an area for a court decide, no matter how many "experts" testify. This goes well beyond mere "discriminatory" practices. This gets inside the very training program itself.
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New York City did not meet it's burden. The City had an opportunity to demonstrate that they "the process of designing employment examinations is complex, requiring consultation with experts and careful consideration of accepted testing standards. As discussed below, these requirements are reflected in federal regulations and existing Second Circuit precedent. This legal authority sets forth a simple principle: municipalities must take adequate measures to ensure that their civil service examinations reliably test the relevant knowledge, skills and abilities that will determine which applicants will best perform their specific public duties."

According to the judge, "the City did not take sufficient measures to ensure that better performers on its examinations would actually be better firefighters." The judge further states, I am aware that the use of multiple-choice examinations is typically intended to apply objective standards to employment decisions. Similarly, I recognize that it is natural to assume that the best performers on an employment test must be the best people for the job. But, the significance of these principles is undermined when an examination is not fair. As Congress recognized in enacting Title VII, when an employment test is not adequately related to the job for which it tests—and when the test adversely affects minority groups—we may not fall back on the notion that better test takers make better employees."
 
Connery said:
New York City did not meet it's burden. The City had an opportunity to demonstrate that they "the process of designing employment examinations is complex, requiring consultation with experts and careful consideration of accepted testing standards. As discussed below, these requirements are reflected in federal regulations and existing Second Circuit precedent. This legal authority sets forth a simple principle: municipalities must take adequate measures to ensure that their civil service examinations reliably test the relevant knowledge, skills and abilities that will determine which applicants will best perform their specific public duties."

According to the judge, "the City did not take sufficient measures to ensure that better performers on its examinations would actually be better firefighters." The judge further states, I am aware that the use of multiple-choice examinations is typically intended to apply objective standards to employment decisions. Similarly, I recognize that it is natural to assume that the best performers on an employment test must be the best people for the job. But, the significance of these principles is undermined when an examination is not fair. As Congress recognized in enacting Title VII, when an employment test is not adequately related to the job for which it tests—and when the test adversely affects minority groups—we may not fall back on the notion that better test takers make better employees."
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That doesn't speak to what I said. The "burden" is irrelevant if it's not an appropriate subject for the court to consider. And this:

"the City did not take sufficient measures to ensure that better performers on its examinations would actually be better firefighters."
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Is simply nonsensical, and exactly the kind of inappropriate intrusion by a court to which I was referring.
 
justabubba said:
the test can certainly be constructed with a bias

answer this question

in the black community, which flavor of soda is preferred

orange
grape
strawberry
cola
lemon-lime
colt 45 malt

let us know your answer
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That is the most ignorant example I have ever seen.

I'm talking about a test for eligibility for employment with a fire department, police department, etc.

I'm not talking about an ignorant on the spot racial stereotype question type of bull**** test.

Edit to add: By the way, thanks for ignoring everything else I said in my post.
 
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Caine said:
That is the most ignorant example I have ever seen.

I'm talking about a test for eligibility for employment with a fire department, police department, etc.

I'm not talking about an ignorant on the spot racial stereotype question type of bull**** test.

Edit to add: By the way, thanks for ignoring everything else I said in my post.
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I lol'd. His post was pretty funny.
 
muciti said:
Doesn't forcing them to hire specific races make it racist? This seems to be discriminating against white, asian, middle eastern, and native american applicants.
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I don't even know. Sounds quota-like. Where'd they come up with that number?

I wonder how many more decades we're going to continue mistaking class and intellectual differences for race differences...
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
So this district judge thinks blacks and latinos are dumber than white people.
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This is what things like this all boils down to. Some judge believing that minorities simply can not get along in life without his help.
 
1Perry said:
This is what things like this all boils down to. Some judge believing that minorities simply can not get along in life without his help.
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Not to mention, someone had to bring this before the judge... judges don't go out yanking people into court to fit their own social agenda.

So, prior to some judge believing that minorities simply can not get along in life without his help....

Some minorities believed that they simply could not get along in life without the government's help.

Imagine that......

In the age of, "THE GOVERNMENT WILL HELP YOU!" style of thinking.
 
muciti said:
Please explain how that is not what he is saying?
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Exactly....

Even if you take the judges statement about the test to mean that it isn't accurately testing people on knowledge needed to be considered a candidate for employment in a fire department (and WTF would a lawyer know about what skills are needed to be a firefighter).. It is STILL a huge LEAP of logic to make any connection between the test not accurately reflecting knowledge needed for the job, and the test is unfairly made with some intent to leave blacks and latinos out of the job pool.
 
muciti said:
Please explain how that is not what he is saying?
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insinuating that the judge thinks blacks & Hispanics are simply dumb, is a pretty stupid thing to say.

he believes that a de-facto & gentlemen's agreemant system is in place that discriminates against them, in favor of white applicants.
 
Historically, the fire departments of NY have been a source of systemic racial discrimination. In the mid 1850s, the Irish essentially used it as a political tool. Since then, it's been a pretty useful tool for many other white ethnicities - the Polish, Croats, etc. This isn't really all that surprising. It's no different than how police departments in the South/West were used to keep control over blacks and Hispanics during the 40s-50s and 60s.
 
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Thunder said:
insinuating that the judge thinks blacks & Hispanics are simply dumb, is a pretty stupid thing to say.

he believes that a de-facto & gentlemen's agreemant system is in place that discriminates against them, in favor of white applicants.
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So they do this with a test? o_O
 
Caine said:
Not to mention, someone had to bring this before the judge... judges don't go out yanking people into court to fit their own social agenda.

So, prior to some judge believing that minorities simply can not get along in life without his help....

Some minorities believed that they simply could not get along in life without the government's help.

Imagine that......

In the age of, "THE GOVERNMENT WILL HELP YOU!" style of thinking.
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I'll bet it wasn't a minority that was in any way affected by this that initiated it.
 
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