• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

FDNY ordered to hire minorities

Yes - and as we all know Jews control the world with their minority of numbers yet dominance in every industry - so in all due actuality: Jews should be 100% of the force and everyone else should be a minority...
more like 8%.

and they should be 8% of the NYPD, Dept. of Sanitation, etc etc..

and if they aint...clearly anti-Semitism is to blaim!!!!!

;)
 
So. The answer to the apparent fact that insiders within the NYFD excluded minorities by their testing procedures is to penalize an already burdened taxpayer with a $128 million award.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. Not. Legal penalties against the insiders who did this...not yet another crushing blow to taxpayers.
those NYC officials who allowed this to happen did so in their official capacity
it is NYC's responsibility when their officials misbehave in such an expensive manner
only if it can be found that the officials took those actions outside of their official capacity can they be sued as individuals. nothing indicates that was the case
hire stupid people, expect stupid results. in this case stupid AND expensive
 
Firefighters have responded to an apartment for an emergency water leak and are now standing in front of the door to the apartment. Which one of the following actions should the firefighters take first to gain entry into the apartment?

A) Knock loudly on the door and then try the doorknob.
B) Cut a hole in the door with a portable saw.
C) Strike one of the door hinges with the back of an axe.
D) Locate the fire escape and climb into the apartment through a window.

I think it's C. If you are a firefighter, it's always good to whack something with your axe.

The correct answer should be ... A.
Try actually getting someone to come to the door before you go breaking ****.
 
those NYC officials who allowed this to happen did so in their official capacity
it is NYC's responsibility when their officials misbehave in such an expensive manner
only if it can be found that the officials took those actions outside of their official capacity can they be sued as individuals. nothing indicates that was the case
hire stupid people, expect stupid results. in this case stupid AND expensive

In my opinion, that "cover" needs to go away. This amounts to a carte blanc ticket for official misconduct. And if those people aren't elected officials, they don't answer to the taxpayer in any way/shape/form. It's about time we held people accountable for their actions instead of passing the buck. Without accountability, we're screwed. And this is one $128 million case on point.
 
I'm sorry folks, but just because the FDNY doesn't represent the racial & ethnic makeup of NYC, doesn't mean their hiring practises or testing is biased.

as I have pointed out, Jews make up 8% of NYC...but more like 2% of the FDNY. Is this evidence of institutionalized anti-Semitism at the FDNY? no.
 
In my opinion, that "cover" needs to go away. This amounts to a carte blanc ticket for official misconduct. And if those people aren't elected officials, they don't answer to the taxpayer in any way/shape/form. It's about time we held people accountable for their actions instead of passing the buck. Without accountability, we're screwed. And this is one $128 million case on point.

can't agree with this
the organization which selects individuals to represent it should make those appointments judiciously
and then it should monitor those officials' decisions to assure that they are acting in the organization's best interests
the organization should remain responsible for any wrongful actions its representatives commit


what i have often seen is politicians appointing underlings who will be loyal to them and their agenda, no matter how doing so might cause them to violate existing laws, rules or regulations
and if the underling gets caught - doing the inappropriate actions the appointing politician expected to be done - that politician disavows the actions of their appointed subordinate, protecting himself
it is plausible deniability 101
 
I'm sorry folks, but just because the FDNY doesn't represent the racial & ethnic makeup of NYC, doesn't mean their hiring practises or testing is biased.

as I have pointed out, Jews make up 8% of NYC...but more like 2% of the FDNY. Is this evidence of institutionalized anti-Semitism at the FDNY? no.

No.

Often times people aren't even originally from a city that they apply for a city job with, they are moving there for the job, and would not have been included in the original statistics.

I didn't live in the city I now work for the PD of when I first applied.
 
If I was black or Latino I would be offended by what this judge said.Because it basically amounts to saying blacks and latinos are too stupid so you have to lower the standard.

i read it differently
it appeared - to me - that he was asserting the test was rigged
rigged in favor of the good ole boys who would coach their favorites to score well
to the detriment of those who were not good ole boys [i.e., non-white]
 
This is the central issue to the case, "whether the skills measured by the FDNY’s written exam have any relationship to skills necessary to be a good firefighter – the EEOC and DOJ have concluded that they do not. CCR contends that there is no reason the City should be using this test to hire firefighters and that continuing to use it is against the law." The court believed it did not. I agree with the court's holding as these tests have little to do with the job.

The test questions to which people have linked sure look like they have a lot to do with the job.

Here's a situation where it's really not the court's place to decide. The FDNY knows what it needs. The court isn't equipped to second-guess it.
 
The test questions to which people have linked sure look like they have a lot to do with the job.

Here's a situation where it's really not the court's place to decide. The FDNY knows what it needs. The court isn't equipped to second-guess it.
yea, more white guys
 
i read it differently
it appeared - to me - that he was asserting the test was rigged
rigged in favor of the good ole boys who would coach their favorites to score well
to the detriment of those who were not good ole boys [i.e., non-white]

And that would be key. If the game was rigged, that's a different matter than merely not passing the test. I haven't looked in to it enough, though I'm sure I can fine someone saying it isn't and someone saying it is. What I would like to see move is what swayed the judge to rule as he did.
 
i read it differently
it appeared - to me - that he was asserting the test was rigged
rigged in favor of the good ole boys who would coach their favorites to score well
to the detriment of those who were not good ole boys [i.e., non-white]

Why does it appear to be so?

Did you read those sample questions? Seem like reasonable questions on being a firefighter to me.....

Can you tell me what is "racist" about those questions?
 
It doesn't have ANY relationship to skills necessary to be a firefighter? Really? Statements like this make me very suspicious. I smell a judge that is making things up as he goes along. I think he saw that simply too many whites were getting the positions and concluded discrimination was going on and sought to find it.

This is not the first time this situation has occurred. "In the early 1970s, Judge Weinfeld in the Southern District of New York found that the City’s written and physical examinations for entry-level firefighters violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution because of their discriminatory impact on black and Hispanic applicants." See Vulcan Soc’y of New York City Fire Dep’t, Inc. v. Civil Serv. Comm’n, 360 F. Supp. 1265, 1269 (S.D.N.Y. 1973), affirmed in relevant part by 490 F.2d 387 (2d Cir. 1973). After which, an independent company was hired to develop and administer tests and so forth which would be more representative.
`
 
What I would like to see move is what swayed the judge to rule as he did.

Yeah, If the judge could articulate how he came to the conclusion, his reasons behind his opinion being that the test is somehow written to intentionally disqualify black and latino applicants other than just "because I say so".

I also find it funny that lawyers get to determine whether a test is checking applicants for knowledge needed to be firefighters.
 
And that would be key. If the game was rigged, that's a different matter than merely not passing the test. I haven't looked in to it enough, though I'm sure I can fine someone saying it isn't and someone saying it is. What I would like to see move is what swayed the judge to rule as he did.

fortunately, the judge (as well as the EEOC) already evaluated the test and found it inappropriate as a basis to include/exclude FD candidates
 
Mmm.

There is some merit on both sides. It appears to me that the fire-fighting department did not maintain strict standards in creating the tests, the result being that a bias in recruiting occurred. At the same time, the presence of the test is probably not being questioned, just the fact that it is a sucky test.
 
Yeah, If the judge could articulate how he came to the conclusion, his reasons behind his opinion being that the test is somehow written to intentionally disqualify black and latino applicants other than just "because I say so".

I also find it funny that lawyers get to determine whether a test is checking applicants for knowledge needed to be firefighters.

It didn't used to be that way. Courts, at one time, respected the areas where it's not appropriate for them to decide things.

They probably still even teach such a doctrine in law schools, though in practice it's becoming harder and harder to find.
 
Yeah, If the judge could articulate how he came to the conclusion, his reasons behind his opinion being that the test is somehow written to intentionally disqualify black and latino applicants other than just "because I say so".

I also find it funny that lawyers get to determine whether a test is checking applicants for knowledge needed to be firefighters.

Well, I would hope evidence form people who are qualified was presented. A judge can't be an expert on everything, which is why both sides present evidence, . . .right?

I would be interested to see the evidence and what led him to reach the conclusion he reached. You know, it is possible he's right. Sure, it's also possible he's wrong. But how he got that there is important.
 
i read it differently
it appeared - to me - that he was asserting the test was rigged
rigged in favor of the good ole boys who would coach their favorites to score well
to the detriment of those who were not good ole boys [i.e., non-white]


The accusation was that the test was rigged in order to not hire blacks and Latinos, not whether or not favorite candidates were being coached.So how is this test rigged to excluded Blacks and Latinos? Looking at the sample questions the only people who would be excluded are people who are too stupid to bother studying for tests.So saying that the tests are designed to exclude blacks and Latinos amounts to saying that they are too stupid to pass a test.
 
The accusation was that the test was rigged in order to not hire blacks and Latinos, not whether or not favorite candidates were being coached.So how is this test rigged to excluded Blacks and Latinos? Looking at the sample questions the only people who would be excluded are people who are too stupid to bother studying for tests.So saying that the tests are designed to exclude blacks and Latinos amounts to saying that they are too stupid to pass a test.


we see that black and hispanics achieve academically at far less rates than their demographic representation
so, it would not be surprising to learn that hispanic and black applicants failed the test in greater percentages than did whites (or that asians passed the test in greater percentages than whites)
but when looking at the exam being used, the EEOC and the federal court found that the test was not an accurate gauge of candidacy. thus, excluding those who failed the test may have excluded them wrongly
 
And so now they're ordered to hire 293 black and Latino applicants.
 
The test questions to which people have linked sure look like they have a lot to do with the job.

Here's a situation where it's really not the court's place to decide. The FDNY knows what it needs. The court isn't equipped to second-guess it.

The court is not determining the FDNY needs. They are making sure the civil rights of the parties are protected. Moreover, the judge does not sit at the bench and take the test to determine the propriety of the material, he relies on experts, administrative bodies, Special Masters and the like who provide their opinion to assist the judge in making a decision. I cited a situation which took place in the 1970's in an earlier post for reference.
 
Back
Top Bottom