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Thread: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Sheesh, when will New Yorkers get over their racism?

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    The court is not determining the FDNY needs. They are making sure the civil rights of the parties are protected. Moreover, the judge does not sit at the bench and take the test to determine the propriety of the material, he relies on experts, administrative bodies, Special Masters and the like who provide their opinion to assist the judge in making a decision. I cited a situation which took place in the 1970's in an earlier post for reference.
    Sure they are. They're determining that the questions, which look pretty relevant to me, aren't related to being a firefighter, when FDNY says they are. Further, they're ruling based on the idea that the things covered in the test should or could be handled in on-the-job training and thus have no need to be on the test.

    This is not an area for a court decide, no matter how many "experts" testify. This goes well beyond mere "discriminatory" practices. This gets inside the very training program itself.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    fortunately, the judge (as well as the EEOC) already evaluated the test and found it inappropriate as a basis to include/exclude FD candidates
    But what about it is inappropriate?????

    Or can he even plainly state what is inappropriate besides some unrelated statistical anomaly?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    don't recall you taking this same position when the supreme court ruled the other way:
    Court Rules For White Firefighters in Affirmative Action Case
    The firefighters who brought that case up were right.

    They were disqualified on the basis that the test, again, was unfair to blacks.



    I don't think there is a human being alive on the planet that can articulate to me how a test of knowledge required to be in a position can possibly be disadvantageous to a particular race over another. Unless one is pulling from assumptions of a particular race's abilities, or lacktherof, and then such an assumption would be racist, not the test.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post


    I'm gonna go with B.
    Its a trick question. You break out a window with an ax to enter the apartment.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    we see that black and hispanics achieve academically at far less rates than their demographic representation
    So? We have to dumb down professions in the name of "Equality"??? Im sorry, I don't want some idiot doing my taxes because the requirements for him to get his job was dumbed down so he could get the job because he is black and.... STATISTICALLY blacks achieve lower academically. I don't give a rats ass what your race is, if you were able to meet the standards, you can get the job. Lets not dumb down professions because we need to "be fair" and we make ASSumptions of ones ability based on their race.

    so, it would not be surprising to learn that hispanic and black applicants failed the test in greater percentages than did whites (or that asians passed the test in greater percentages than whites)
    but when looking at the exam being used, the EEOC and the federal court found that the test was not an accurate gauge of candidacy. thus, excluding those who failed the test may have excluded them wrongly
    And if that were the case, they would have been excluded wrongly on the basis of failing the test, whether they be white, black, or hispanic.

    Simply put, a test can not be racist.

    For us to say that The test was too hard, and thats why we weren't getting blacks or hispanics, is to make an assumption of the capabilities of another person based upon their race.

    I would be pissed off if I were as intellectually capable as I am and I happened to be a black person and people were making the assumption that I am dumb due to my race.



    The assumptions made by supporters of Affirmative Action sicken me.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    So? We have to dumb down professions in the name of "Equality"??? Im sorry, I don't want some idiot doing my taxes because the requirements for him to get his job was dumbed down so he could get the job because he is black and.... STATISTICALLY blacks achieve lower academically. I don't give a rats ass what your race is, if you were able to meet the standards, you can get the job. Lets not dumb down professions because we need to "be fair" and we make ASSumptions of ones ability based on their race.

    And if that were the case, they would have been excluded wrongly on the basis of failing the test, whether they be white, black, or hispanic.

    Simply put, a test can not be racist.

    For us to say that The test was too hard, and thats why we weren't getting blacks or hispanics, is to make an assumption of the capabilities of another person based upon their race.

    I would be pissed off if I were as intellectually capable as I am and I happened to be a black person and people were making the assumption that I am dumb due to my race.



    The assumptions made by supporters of Affirmative Action sicken me.
    the test can certainly be constructed with a bias

    answer this question

    in the black community, which flavor of soda is preferred

    orange
    grape
    strawberry
    cola
    lemon-lime
    colt 45 malt


    let us know your answer
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Sure they are. They're determining that the questions, which look pretty relevant to me, aren't related to being a firefighter, when FDNY says they are. Further, they're ruling based on the idea that the things covered in the test should or could be handled in on-the-job training and thus have no need to be on the test.

    This is not an area for a court decide, no matter how many "experts" testify. This goes well beyond mere "discriminatory" practices. This gets inside the very training program itself.

    New York City did not meet it's burden. The City had an opportunity to demonstrate that they "the process of designing employment examinations is complex, requiring consultation with experts and careful consideration of accepted testing standards. As discussed below, these requirements are reflected in federal regulations and existing Second Circuit precedent. This legal authority sets forth a simple principle: municipalities must take adequate measures to ensure that their civil service examinations reliably test the relevant knowledge, skills and abilities that will determine which applicants will best perform their specific public duties."

    According to the judge, "the City did not take sufficient measures to ensure that better performers on its examinations would actually be better firefighters." The judge further states, I am aware that the use of multiple-choice examinations is typically intended to apply objective standards to employment decisions. Similarly, I recognize that it is natural to assume that the best performers on an employment test must be the best people for the job. But, the significance of these principles is undermined when an examination is not fair. As Congress recognized in enacting Title VII, when an employment test is not adequately related to the job for which it tests—and when the test adversely affects minority groups—we may not fall back on the notion that better test takers make better employees."

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post



    So this district judge thinks blacks and latinos are dumber than white people.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    New York City did not meet it's burden. The City had an opportunity to demonstrate that they "the process of designing employment examinations is complex, requiring consultation with experts and careful consideration of accepted testing standards. As discussed below, these requirements are reflected in federal regulations and existing Second Circuit precedent. This legal authority sets forth a simple principle: municipalities must take adequate measures to ensure that their civil service examinations reliably test the relevant knowledge, skills and abilities that will determine which applicants will best perform their specific public duties."

    According to the judge, "the City did not take sufficient measures to ensure that better performers on its examinations would actually be better firefighters." The judge further states, I am aware that the use of multiple-choice examinations is typically intended to apply objective standards to employment decisions. Similarly, I recognize that it is natural to assume that the best performers on an employment test must be the best people for the job. But, the significance of these principles is undermined when an examination is not fair. As Congress recognized in enacting Title VII, when an employment test is not adequately related to the job for which it tests—and when the test adversely affects minority groups—we may not fall back on the notion that better test takers make better employees."
    That doesn't speak to what I said. The "burden" is irrelevant if it's not an appropriate subject for the court to consider. And this:

    "the City did not take sufficient measures to ensure that better performers on its examinations would actually be better firefighters."
    Is simply nonsensical, and exactly the kind of inappropriate intrusion by a court to which I was referring.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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