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Thread: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What I would like to see move is what swayed the judge to rule as he did.
    Yeah, If the judge could articulate how he came to the conclusion, his reasons behind his opinion being that the test is somehow written to intentionally disqualify black and latino applicants other than just "because I say so".

    I also find it funny that lawyers get to determine whether a test is checking applicants for knowledge needed to be firefighters.
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And that would be key. If the game was rigged, that's a different matter than merely not passing the test. I haven't looked in to it enough, though I'm sure I can fine someone saying it isn't and someone saying it is. What I would like to see move is what swayed the judge to rule as he did.
    fortunately, the judge (as well as the EEOC) already evaluated the test and found it inappropriate as a basis to include/exclude FD candidates
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Mmm.

    There is some merit on both sides. It appears to me that the fire-fighting department did not maintain strict standards in creating the tests, the result being that a bias in recruiting occurred. At the same time, the presence of the test is probably not being questioned, just the fact that it is a sucky test.
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Yeah, If the judge could articulate how he came to the conclusion, his reasons behind his opinion being that the test is somehow written to intentionally disqualify black and latino applicants other than just "because I say so".

    I also find it funny that lawyers get to determine whether a test is checking applicants for knowledge needed to be firefighters.
    It didn't used to be that way. Courts, at one time, respected the areas where it's not appropriate for them to decide things.

    They probably still even teach such a doctrine in law schools, though in practice it's becoming harder and harder to find.
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Yeah, If the judge could articulate how he came to the conclusion, his reasons behind his opinion being that the test is somehow written to intentionally disqualify black and latino applicants other than just "because I say so".

    I also find it funny that lawyers get to determine whether a test is checking applicants for knowledge needed to be firefighters.
    Well, I would hope evidence form people who are qualified was presented. A judge can't be an expert on everything, which is why both sides present evidence, . . .right?

    I would be interested to see the evidence and what led him to reach the conclusion he reached. You know, it is possible he's right. Sure, it's also possible he's wrong. But how he got that there is important.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It didn't used to be that way. Courts, at one time, respected the areas where it's not appropriate for them to decide things.

    They probably still even teach such a doctrine in law schools, though in practice it's becoming harder and harder to find.
    don't recall you taking this same position when the supreme court ruled the other way:
    Court Rules For White Firefighters in Affirmative Action Case
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    i read it differently
    it appeared - to me - that he was asserting the test was rigged
    rigged in favor of the good ole boys who would coach their favorites to score well
    to the detriment of those who were not good ole boys [i.e., non-white]

    The accusation was that the test was rigged in order to not hire blacks and Latinos, not whether or not favorite candidates were being coached.So how is this test rigged to excluded Blacks and Latinos? Looking at the sample questions the only people who would be excluded are people who are too stupid to bother studying for tests.So saying that the tests are designed to exclude blacks and Latinos amounts to saying that they are too stupid to pass a test.
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The accusation was that the test was rigged in order to not hire blacks and Latinos, not whether or not favorite candidates were being coached.So how is this test rigged to excluded Blacks and Latinos? Looking at the sample questions the only people who would be excluded are people who are too stupid to bother studying for tests.So saying that the tests are designed to exclude blacks and Latinos amounts to saying that they are too stupid to pass a test.

    we see that black and hispanics achieve academically at far less rates than their demographic representation
    so, it would not be surprising to learn that hispanic and black applicants failed the test in greater percentages than did whites (or that asians passed the test in greater percentages than whites)
    but when looking at the exam being used, the EEOC and the federal court found that the test was not an accurate gauge of candidacy. thus, excluding those who failed the test may have excluded them wrongly
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    And so now they're ordered to hire 293 black and Latino applicants.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The test questions to which people have linked sure look like they have a lot to do with the job.

    Here's a situation where it's really not the court's place to decide. The FDNY knows what it needs. The court isn't equipped to second-guess it.
    The court is not determining the FDNY needs. They are making sure the civil rights of the parties are protected. Moreover, the judge does not sit at the bench and take the test to determine the propriety of the material, he relies on experts, administrative bodies, Special Masters and the like who provide their opinion to assist the judge in making a decision. I cited a situation which took place in the 1970's in an earlier post for reference.

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