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Thread: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

  1. #161
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    [QUOTE=Neomalthusian;1060280242]Why should the providers of a service reflect the community's demographics? It's not like black people are better at putting out the fires where other black people live. I think the service should just be provided adequately. I don't know the real reason why FDNY's demographics don't parallel New York's, but apparently some people think it's the entrance test, eh?

    I'm wondering when courts are going to start forcing restaurants to hire bald, fat ugly men as hosts in decent restaurants. Because you know you'll only ever see hot chicks there when you walk in. "How many?" they ask. "As many as you want, girl." [/QUOTE

    The idea that because a given sector of the population is underrepresented in a given situation does not necessarily mean that the entrance or promotion requirements are wrong. It just means that there are more of one group than another. There can be other reasons than discrimination. Possibly blacks do not want to be firemen. Maybe the education at their schools is lower, in which case the fault lies with the education system. There can be a host of reasons.

    (2) Airlines have already been down that road.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The real question to be asked is ... why are there not more blacks and Hispanics in the FDNY? Such a service should reflect the communities it serves, but it seems it does not in New York... so why?
    Maybe blacks and hispanics do not apply at the same ratio as whites and others???

    Sometimes folks look towards racism before they look towards simpler explanations.
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    The vast majority of people objecting to affirmative action...don't understand what affirmative action ACTUALLY is or how it ACTUALLY operates.

    This is a case of a successful anti discrimination ruling, which is distinct from and above and beyond affirmative action...and yet once again most of the would-be objectors have failed to show a grasp of the basis of the ruling.


    Let's get some basics straightened out first:

    A test need not be INTENTIONALLY DESIGNED to *disproportionately* favor or exclude any particular group...for it to actually do so. So all the folks crying bloody murder about the lack of blatant racist discrimination in the wording of the questions themselves...is barking loudly up the wrong tree.

    This ruling -- which, I must remind folks -- was the result of big teams of well paid professionals spending hundreds of work hours assembling into cases and arguments -- found that the written tests did not reliably correspond with practical competence. In plain english: the written tests were not a reliable indicator of who would go on to become a competent firefighter. NOT of which people of color or which "white" people would go on to become good firefighters...but a case of not being a reliable indicator of ANY test-taker's performance as a firefighter.

    Get it yet?!? The written test wasn't a reliable indicator of practical ability as a firefighter FOR ANYONE.

    Then, after that, the long-term discriminatory result -- which once again does NOT require specific INTENT to discriminate -- was that QUALIFIED black and latino candidates were disproportionately NOT hired.

    Anyone bitching and moaning about finding (or not finding) intentional explicit efforts to exclude certain groups of people...is so ignorant of the actual issue that they're not really in the same conversation. The court ruling is not based upon finding INTENTIONAL efforts to exclude certain people, because institutionalized discrimination requires no intent.

    If, by your particular choice of values and principles, you reject one or more of the following premises:

    • that institutionalized racism is a problem
    • that the government has a legitimate interest in proactive steps against institutionalized racism



    then by all means go ahead and make your case...

    But it is ignorant and/or disingenuous to impose your values upon government actions when government actions (including anti discrimination law) are based upon acceptance of those premises.

    It's like football fans yelling at tennis players for their "failure" to score touchdowns.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Also, just a general reality check:

    The only major premise potentially in play here which can reasonably be identified as racist...

    is the notion that the normal hiring and promotion process-- without affirmative action or other proactive measures to address discrimination -- would magically NOT end up with discriminatory results reflecting larger societal patterns of discrimination.

    The most common form of discrimination in employment is NOT intentional exclusion, but casual inclusion of the people one is already familiar and comfortable with (on several axes, include gender, "race", and class). Disparate impact upon various groups is manifest most often NOT from people going out of their way to keep certain people out, but by people failing to take conscientious measures to avoid favoring those they are already comfortable with.

    Far from an obstacle to meritocratic hiring, the institution of affirmative action efforts and anti discrimination law are based upon the large body of empirical evidence confirming the fact that -- left to their own devices -- potential employers are neither inclined nor qualified to engage in the special preparations and considerations necessary to make a reasonable attempt at nondiscriminatory hiring.

    In other words...completely without reference to intent, discrimination is the default result...while nondiscrimination takes an explicit effort.

    That's why the above premise -- the premise that hiring and admissions before and/or without things like AA would be nondiscriminatory -- is racist: it implies that the typical arrangement of socioeconomic status, resources, and privileges before/without things like AA (which was, and still is, a case of some "races" being heavily privileged) was somehow a result of the privileged ACTUALLY being better or more qualified (as opposed to the fact that they have benefitted, and continue to benefit, from unearned and unsolicited advantages they still take for granted).
    Last edited by cmakaioz; 03-11-12 at 07:13 PM.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Is that what I'm doing? Admittedly I didn't fact check the link I posted, but I believe it said the court ordered them to go out and add 293 brown-colored folks to the payroll. That just seems uh...
    Yeah, uyou are, There were past wrongs that seems absent from what you are suggesting. It is the age old only half the story, which is largely a way to paint something as it isn't.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Also, just a general reality check:

    The only major premise potentially in play here which can reasonably be identified as racist...

    is the notion that the normal hiring and promotion process-- without affirmative action or other proactive measures to address discrimination -- would magically NOT end up with discriminatory results reflecting larger societal patterns of discrimination.

    The most common form of discrimination in employment is NOT intentional exclusion, but casual inclusion of the people one is already familiar and comfortable with (on several axes, include gender, "race", and class). Disparate impact upon various groups is manifest most often NOT from people going out of their way to keep certain people out, but by people failing to take conscientious measures to avoid favoring those they are already comfortable with.

    Far from an obstacle to meritocratic hiring, the institution of affirmative action efforts and anti discrimination law are based upon the large body of empirical evidence confirming the fact that -- left to their own devices -- potential employers are neither inclined nor qualified to engage in the special preparations and considerations necessary to make a reasonable attempt at nondiscriminatory hiring.

    In other words...completely without reference to intent, discrimination is the default result...while nondiscrimination takes an explicit effort.

    That's why the above premise -- the premise that hiring and admissions before and/or without things like AA would be nondiscriminatory -- is racist: it implies that the typical arrangement of socioeconomic status, resources, and privileges before/without things like AA (which was, and still is, a case of some "races" being heavily privileged) was somehow a result of the privileged ACTUALLY being better or more qualified (as opposed to the fact that they have benefitted, and continue to benefit, from unearned and unsolicited advantages they still take for granted).
    So hiring people that reflect your personal views and not not hiring people that don't hold your views now requires AA? So a rich person must now hire a poor person to fill that Assistant CEO position?
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Why should the providers of a service reflect the community's demographics? It's not like black people are better at putting out the fires where other black people live. I think the service should just be provided adequately. I don't know the real reason why FDNY's demographics don't parallel New York's, but apparently some people think it's the entrance test, eh?

    I'm wondering when courts are going to start forcing restaurants to hire bald, fat ugly men as hosts in decent restaurants. Because you know you'll only ever see hot chicks there when you walk in. "How many?" they ask. "As many as you want, girl."
    If things are proceding naturally, that is what should happen. But admittedly, all it really does is suggest there is a question. After that, then comes seeking the answer. The court ruled the reason was some flaw in the test.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Another result from social science to think about:

    When polled on opinions/assessments of discrimination, members of the privileged group on a privileged axis consistently answer the following questions DIFFERENTLY:

    *Do you believe some groups of people face unearned disadvantages or barriers with regards to hiring, admissions, and social status?
    *Do you believe some groups of people receive unearned privilege with regards to hiring, admissions, and social status?

    This demonstrates a failure to correctly connect/success in psychologically distancing oneself from the flip-side of negative discrimination...positive discrimination.

    In English: privileged people more readily acknowledge the disadvantages of a targeted group than the advantages of a privileged group...despite the fact that they are two sides of the same coin:

    "White" people more readily acknowledge discrimination against people of color than they do unearned privilege and social entitlement for "whites";
    Men more readily acknowledge discrimination against women than they do unearned privilege for men;
    Rich people more readily acknowledge discrimination against the poor than they do unearned privilege for the rich;
    etc.

    Absent massive bigotry, then, the default reasonable conclusion about discrimination is that women, people of color, and the poor consistently raise major concerns about sexist, racist, and classist discrimination because there actually are major issues of sexist, racist, and classist discrimination.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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