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Thread: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    The real problem here is that this ruling does nothing to stop racism. They are forcing the issue of race to be considered in the hiring process. The better way to do this would be to eliminate race as a factor in the hiring process.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    The real problem here is that this ruling does nothing to stop racism. They are forcing the issue of race to be considered in the hiring process. The better way to do this would be to eliminate race as a factor in the hiring process.
    As most efforts to 'create an equal playing field by requiring race BECOME a determining factor' often do.
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    The real problem here is that this ruling does nothing to stop racism. They are forcing the issue of race to be considered in the hiring process. The better way to do this would be to eliminate race as a factor in the hiring process.
    Agreed. But the question is how. It isn't like they or anyone would openly say we don't want a minority, or do anything too overt. They would just find away not to hire a minority. This is done rather often yet today. In private conversations I have been told by some who hire that the law be damned, no minority will work for them. So, without that admission, and as qualifications are really more subjective than most want to admit, how do you go about it?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Yes. But what the basis for the evidence was.... and whether it was an opinion garnered from an attempt to fill in the blanks of what statistics can't prove... or whether it was in the form of emails from administrators saying, "DON'T HIRE DEM DERE KNEEEGROWS OR DEM MEX-E-CANS!" are two different things.
    Not really. There is a lot inbetween. It is rare, very rare, and any two candidates, let alone with a lot of candidates, where you always have a clear cut winner. It often boils down to something much more subjective. So, not only is there room for error, but also room for someone to always see the white male as the better choice. Maybe on purpose, but maybe not. Just the view is clouded by a prejudice they didn't know they held.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Agreed. But the question is how. It isn't like they or anyone would openly say we don't want a minority, or do anything too overt. They would just find away not to hire a minority. This is done rather often yet today. In private conversations I have been told by some who hire that the law be damned, no minority will work for them. So, without that admission, and as qualifications are really more subjective than most want to admit, how do you go about it?
    Yeah: there's a huge host of other activities that would scream 'racist' and so on - but passing a test isn't one of them unless the whites were given the answers ahead of time.

    You know - this approach to this issue I'm just not seeing.
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Yeah: there's a huge host of other activities that would scream 'racist' and so on - but passing a test isn't one of them unless the whites were given the answers ahead of time.

    You know - this approach to this issue I'm just not seeing.
    The helping the whites pass comment earlier I think is kind of close to giving the answers. But, no, a test can be fudged in a direction. It really isn't really the ahrd to do. The question is whether that is what happened or not. I would love to see the evidence.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    The only thing argued that could have been changed in the court's opinion was the order in which elements of the 'pass fail' system were presented.

    Currently it's: Pass the written exam with an 84% FIRST - if you pass then proceed to the PPT, and so on.
    Their suggestion: 'Don't do the written exam FIRST' . . . or 'lower the passing grade'

    Why isn't the response from others more along the lines of 'apply yourself more so you can pass the test' - is this really racist to suggest? The ones who DID take it DID pass it and DID go on to qualify and ARE part of this so called 'racist' system of firefighters, now - they deserve recognition for their success. They've proven it's obtainable and passible. THEY, have no doubt, put in extra study time and learned what they didn't already know.

    Bravo for their success.

    This whole lawsuit and ruling diminishes their success which is such a tragic shame: the only time being better than the rest turns out to be a bad thing in life.

    I just don't see it being the *fault* of the FDNY whether or not they come prepared to pass the written test.
    I agree with you. I was just jazzed by the opportunity to those who told me in no uncertain terms that quotas are illegal and are therefore not in effect the berries. 'Cause I know for a fact that quotas are in effect and they are enforced. This is further evidence of that.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    I agree: it's bull**** - this whole 'the % of people who apply and qualify but match the % of the population'

    This goes back to an article I read about 'the Crack Alternative' - a study done on why Mexicans and Puerto Ricans in one area weren't succeeding in the new 'business world' - the people tried to say it was because of serious cultural differences that they couldn't (or wouldn't) get past. . . but sexism was glaringly obvious and so was the refusal to accept that to get a job you MUST comply with the necessary attitude and attire - be your own self on your own time. . . these stubborn qualities are why they didn't keep a job that was 'entry level' - not because the work environment was racist. Because those who did keep jobs that were 'entry level' were able to divide their 'work self' from their 'real self' and function just fine *at work* and succeed very well in their work-life and excel upward. Tehy weren't always on 'the bottom'

    So until people who propose these arguments are willing to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that they - first - aren't their own problem then I'm just not going to flex very much on my view.

    Race and gender are NO EXCUSE to suck in life.

    They should be offended at the suggestion that they can sue their way into employment because they're a minority, truly . . . people tell me occasionally that some thing should be easier for me to get done because I'm a female and I get thoroughly offended and quite disgusted by the notion that my brains don't matter as much as everyone's elses.
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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Agreed. But the question is how. It isn't like they or anyone would openly say we don't want a minority, or do anything too overt. They would just find away not to hire a minority. This is done rather often yet today. In private conversations I have been told by some who hire that the law be damned, no minority will work for them. So, without that admission, and as qualifications are really more subjective than most want to admit, how do you go about it?
    Forcing a race on a job that very directly is involved in life or death situations is just plain dumb. To answer your question, you implement a way to determine the best person for a job. When you hire based on race, or racial percentages you arent doing that. If a white guy and a black guy both apply for a job and the white guy is better for the job, then he should get it. Regardless of the percentage of blacks currently employed. That is irrelevant.

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    Re: FDNY ordered to hire minorities

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Forcing a race on a job that very directly is involved in life or death situations is just plain dumb. To answer your question, you implement a way to determine the best person for a job. When you hire based on race, or racial percentages you arent doing that. If a white guy and a black guy both apply for a job and the white guy is better for the job, then he should get it. Regardless of the percentage of blacks currently employed. That is irrelevant.
    Race has anything to with not qualified as you can be denied the job and still be qualified, cmpletely qualified -- no risk at all in hiring them. In such fields (fire fighting, police, healthcare, education) a lot of misperceptions exist. Start with the fact that group think has led people to believe their is only one way to do something, only one standard. If all white males suddenly could be fire fighters tommorrow, women and maniorites woudl still find a way to fight fires. Particularly women, often seen as weaker, woudl simply find a different way to do it. Also, I doubt very seriously that minorities are simply not qualified. I would have to accept that they are in fact somehow less able to learn.

    As for percentage, not really my concern. My concern is what evidence was there that showed the testing they were using was improper and the suugestion whites were helped. I withhold complete judgment until I see that. But I will say percentages can open the door for the question. It raises a flag that suggests we ask why? Now there may be a naswer. But, there may also be a reason show clear bias.
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 03-10-12 at 03:08 AM.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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