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Explosive Growth of Militias

taxigirl said:
Here-- read the 542-page report on the incident, with redactions unfortunately, which was later determined to hold evidence of a cover up as determined in the various descriptions, press releases, and reports released in 2001 and later. Go to Welcome to the United States Department of Justice and search "Ruby Ridge 2001". It is amazing what the government will admit to after the smoke has cleared, the FOIA is enforced and different people are in control.
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There doesn't seem to be a page 542.
 
AdamT said:
And the Weavers didn't. Wait, didn't each of the kids get $1,000,000? And couldn't they have been charged with the murder of a federal agent?
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Yes, they received money as compensation for the insane incompetence and illegal activity of the government. Kevin Harris was acquitted for killing agent Bill Degan. Sammy Weaver was shot IN THE BACK and killed, so no he could not have been charged.

Lon Horiuchi, the agent who killed Vicki Weaver was indicted for a federal charge of manslaughter which was dismissed due to the supremacy clause. He was then charged for manslaughter by the State of Idaho. Eventually (2001 I believe) the county prosecutor dropped the charges because he felt it was unlikely the state could prove the case and too much time had passed. The special prosecutor for the case disagreed.
 
taxigirl said:
Yes, they received money as compensation for the insane incompetence and illegal activity of the government. Kevin Harris was acquitted for killing agent Bill Degan. Sammy Weaver was shot IN THE BACK and killed, so no he could not have been charged.

Lon Horiuchi, the agent who killed Vicki Weaver was indicted for a federal charge of manslaughter which was dismissed due to the supremacy clause. He was then charged for manslaughter by the State of Idaho. Eventually (2001 I believe) the county prosecutor dropped the charges because he felt it was unlikely the state could prove the case and too much time had passed. The special prosecutor for the case disagreed.
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Right, so again it comes down to a swearing contest and who you believe. Do you believe a couple of hyped up kids who were raised by seriously paranoid parents, or two trained federal law enforcement officers?
 
AdamT said:
There doesn't seem to be a page 542.
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The following document, which is contained in the attached files, is the full text of the task force's unreleased 542-page report, which was obtained by LEXIS COUNSEL CONNECT.

In the hard copy of this document, some material has been deleted and marked by the word "Garrity," apparently referring to U.S. Supreme Court opinion Garrity v. New Jersey (1967). UnderGarrity, government employees must be granted immunity from criminal prosecution if they provide information during an administrative investigation.
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Maybe the redactions caused the shortage. Lexis obtained the report from the DOJ. The report in its entirety is not available on the DOJ website, however reports of the report are, I don't know why this makes sense, the DOJ says "yes there is a report, here are our reports about the report and a few pages of it" You can also find mainstream media reports about the report online.

Blech.

Originally in 2001 there was an admission that the original investigation and report contained errors and cover up. The reports of the report you can now find admit that as well, but the full text of the..... let's see if I get this right..... report of the reports of the report is not available.

Get it yet?
 
AdamT said:
Right, so again it comes down to a swearing contest and who you believe. Do you believe a couple of hyped up kids who were raised by seriously paranoid parents, or two trained federal law enforcement officers?
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One "hyped up kid" and one dead kid, who was SHOT IN THE BACK and a dead dog.
"Don't call Randy Weaver paranoid. His worst fears about the government have come true." -Jonathan Karl.
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I do believe the final report of the reports or the report, which include an investigation of the multiple investigations that took place.

I hope you are getting the point that the government admits there was a cover up and the ATF and FBI really screwed this one up.

Now, to get more convoluted and controversial.... are you aware that some of the commanding officers at Ruby Ridge also took part in executing the attack on Waco? No, I am not McVeigh's reincarnation, but.... ready for some inductive reasoning?
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
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AdamT said:
There doesn't seem to be a page 542.
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The last section begins on page 528 and there are no page numbers, so it's not clear how many pages there would be printed.

But even if there isn't -- sure, go ahead and dismiss the entire thing just because taxigirl misstated the apparent number of pages. Go ahead and ignore the massive sections on FBI obfuscation and prosecutorial misconduct, and their pretrial misdeeds. If it makes you feel better . . .

With all of that misconduct, and with the acquittals of everyone involved with the Weavers, gosh, it's SO tough to imagine some ATF agents lying to cover asses.
 
Harshaw said:
The last section begins on page 528 and there are no page numbers, so it's not clear how many pages there would be printed.

But even if there isn't -- sure, go ahead and dismiss the entire thing just because taxigirl misstated the apparent number of pages. Go ahead and ignore the massive sections on FBI obfuscation and prosecutorial misconduct, and their pretrial misdeeds. If it makes you feel better . . .

With all of that misconduct, and with the acquittals of everyone involved with the Weavers, gosh, it's SO tough to imagine some ATF agents lying to cover asses.
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Sorry, but I was just pointing out that I couldn't locate the page she referenced. Down boy. Down!

You and Taxigirl are obviously determined to accept the Weavers' version of events, admitting no possiblity that they were partly at fault. I'm not. I think they could be telling the truth, but think it's somewhat more likely that the ATF agents are telling the truth, or both sides are telling partial truths, or, as likely, they both think they're telling the truth about what happened in a frenzied, frightening blur.

Regardless of who started it, it's obvious that both sides screwed up to create the ensuing mess. The Weavers should have surrendered and the Feds should have been much less aggressive.
 
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Thunder said:
Weaver sold sawed-off shotguns to an ATF agent.
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Oops, there it is...

Seriously, Ruby Ridge? How many more decades are they going to cling to that as an excuse to have their own little armories?

But the same gun folks will support Bush for invading Iraq based on a lie. We toppled a country based on a lie. And we tortured people. Those are war crimes.

And they're still talking about poor Randy Weaver up in his cabin, minding his own business.... That's the same mentality that got OJ off... "Well, the LAPD planted evidence, so he was innocent." No. He murdered his wife and the LAPD stupidly tried to make the case stronger. Yes, AFT made mistakes, people were killed. But the Weavers reaped what they sowed and now the kids are millionaires.

You stockpile guns and ammo, and commit a crime (illegally selling weapons), or plan to commit a crime, I hope the ATF takes you down. I have no sympathy for you. But the families that WERE minding their own business in Bagdad when we rained hellfire down on them... Killing truly innocent people. Feel sorry for them.
 
AdamT said:
Right, so again it comes down to a swearing contest and who you believe. Do you believe a couple of hyped up kids who were raised by seriously paranoid parents, or two trained federal law enforcement officers?
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I AM a former law enforcement officer, and I just dropped in to tell you that LEO's can and do lie just like any other human being, when they think their ass is on the line. Having LE before your name is no guarantor of your ethics or honesty.
 
AdamT said:
Sorry, but I was just pointing out that I couldn't locate the page she referenced. Down boy. Down!
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She didn't reference a page.

You and Taxigirl are obviously determined to accept the Weavers' version of events, admitting no possiblity that they were partly at fault.
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No, that's your strawman. My comments regarded a single point, and that single point alone.


I'm not. I think they could be telling the truth, but think it's somewhat more likely that the ATF agents are telling the truth, or both sides are telling partial truths, or, as likely, they both think they're telling the truth about what happened in a frenzied, frightening blur.
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There's a whole 500+ page report on FBI/government CYA government misconduct in the prosecution and trial.

What did the Weavers lie about?
 
Goshin said:
I AM a former law enforcement officer, and I just dropped in to tell you that LEO's can and do lie just like any other human being, when they think their ass is on the line. Having LE before your name is no guarantor of your ethics or honesty.
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And paranoid parents who stockpile weapons and home school their kids are also capable of lying... Having "Loving Parent" on your grave stone does not means your were an ethical/moral person.

I like what Bill Maher said last night about home schooled kids -- When your parents are the smartest adults you know, you could be screwed.
 
hazlnut said:
And paranoid parents who stockpile weapons and home school their kids are also capable of lying... Having "Loving Parent" on your grave stone does not means your were an ethical/moral person.

I like what Bill Maher said last night about home schooled kids -- When your parents are the smartest adults you know, you could be screwed.
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Yeah, I'm not surprised you like something Mahler said.

I've known a good many homeschooled children. Oddly enough most of them came across as very intelligent and mature, and well-behaved, and grew up to be remakably successful adults.

The Weavers were an odd bunch sure... like the Branch Davidians.... but I can't lay my finger of that article of the Constitution where being "odd" was a capital offense in America....
 
hazlnut said:
And paranoid parents who stockpile weapons and home school their kids are also capable of lying...
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What else did they lie about?

'Coz the government was up to its ass in coverup and obstruction.
 
Goshin said:
I AM a former law enforcement officer, and I just dropped in to tell you that LEO's can and do lie just like any other human being, when they think their ass is on the line. Having LE before your name is no guarantor of your ethics or honesty.
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Yep, I'm well aware of that. And as I'm sure you know, perps lie even more.
 
Harshaw said:
She didn't reference a page.



No, that's your strawman. My comments regarded a single point, and that single point alone.




There's a whole 500+ page report on FBI/government CYA government misconduct in the prosecution and trial.

What did the Weavers lie about?
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Maybe you should look at the report instead of fixating on Taxigirl's page reference? If you do you will see that there's a subtitled section that describes in detail what the conflicting claims were about the initial encounter.
 
Goshin said:
The Weavers were an odd bunch sure... like the Branch Davidians.... but I can't lay my finger of that article of the Constitution where being "odd" was a capital offense in America....
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The ATF's first-ever encounter with Weaver was at an Aryan Nations rally. Just sayin'.
 
Did anyone notice that this topic is what I Did my Maters Theis on? I'm not saying you do not have knowledge about the event and subsequent acts by the DOJ, but that I am probably more qualified to present relevant and true information. The goal of my thesis was to address the bublimg of the fbi and At two events that destroyed their credibility.
 
taxigirl said:
Did anyone notice that this topic is what I Did my Maters Theis on? I'm not saying you do not have knowledge about the event and subsequent acts by the DOJ, but that I am probably more qualified to present relevant and true information. The goal of my thesis was to address the bublimg of the fbi and At two events that destroyed their credibility.
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What's a maters theis? ;)
 
taxigirl said:
Did anyone notice that this topic is what I Did my Maters Theis on? I'm not saying you do not have knowledge about the event and subsequent acts by the DOJ, but that I am probably more qualified to present relevant and true information. The goal of my thesis was to address the bublimg of the fbi and At two events that destroyed their credibility.
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Sorry for the typos.
 
AdamT said:
The ATF's first-ever encounter with Weaver was at an Aryan Nations rally. Just sayin'.
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Yeah, I have a low opinion of anyone who goes to an Aryan Nations rally too. I'm just asking when being an oddball and holding unpopular positions became a crime in America, let alone a capital offense.

Sawing off a single shotgun 2 inches too short justifies killing someone's son and wife?
 
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AdamT said:
What's a maters theis? ;)
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My final project for my Masters Degree, which I had to defend in front of a panel of my proffessers. Mywas in Communications and I chose çrisis communication as my specific purpose
.The wholeprocess was fun and gruelling as real information is.sparcd. I am happy with it.
 
hazlnut said:
Oops, there it is...

Seriously, Ruby Ridge? How many more decades are they going to cling to that as an excuse to have their own little armories?

But the same gun folks will support Bush for invading Iraq based on a lie. We toppled a country based on a lie. And we tortured people. Those are war crimes.

And they're still talking about poor Randy Weaver up in his cabin, minding his own business.... That's the same mentality that got OJ off... "Well, the LAPD planted evidence, so he was innocent." No. He murdered his wife and the LAPD stupidly tried to make the case stronger. Yes, AFT made mistakes, people were killed. But the Weavers reaped what they sowed and now the kids are millionaires.

You stockpile guns and ammo, and commit a crime (illegally selling weapons), or plan to commit a crime, I hope the ATF takes you down. I have no sympathy for you. But the families that WERE minding their own business in Bagdad when we rained hellfire down on them... Killing truly innocent people. Feel sorry for them.
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Seriously? People dont need a single reason to have their own little armories. They have the right to do so.

The BUsh invasion crapola is all a derail attempt and your addressing the Ruby Ridge incident is an attempt at regrabbing the narrative, keeping it simple instead of complicated means you can keep throwing around more gun control instead of addressing the missteps made by law enforcement officials.
 
taxigirl said:
My final project for my Masters Degree, which I had to defend in front of a panel of my proffessers. Mywas in Communications and I chose çrisis communication as my specific purpose
.The wholeprocess was fun and gruelling as real information is.sparcd. I am happy with it.
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....hmmmmm....
 
Goshin said:
Yeah, I have a low opinion of anyone who goes to an Aryan Nations rally too. I'm just asking when being an oddball and holding unpopular positions became a crime in America, let alone a capital offense.

Sawing off a single shotgun 2 inches too short justifies killing someone's son and wife?
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I don't disagree that the investigation was a cluster**** from day one. It's pretty obvious that they were trying to intimidate Weaver in order to turn him into an inside source, and when he refused, they retaliated against him. I'm not arguing that the ATF doesn't have dirty hands in all this. I'm just saying that the Weavers' hands weren't entirely clean, either.
 
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