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Thread: Explosive Growth of Militias

  1. #351
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You're just throwing up another silly strawman. I never claimed that the Weavers were lying. Why do you keep suggesting that I did?
    I didn't.

    You asked who's more credible.

    I'm picking the ones who don't have a documented history of covering up and obfuscating what happened, and whose version was "believed" in court. This strikes me as the more reasonable thing to do.
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    His family were white separatists, this does not make them racist or anti-semitic as various misinformation campaigns would have you believe. Randy believes that by separating the races we can avoid conflict. Right or Wrong, that is his prerogative and he should not be persecuted for that. I think the "separatist" you are referring to is an "isolationist".
    How can the total separation of races where the "mixing" (miscegenation) of races is viewed as a negative not be racist? If the result of a mixed couple is inferior to that of "pure" racial couples, how is that not racist?
    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post

    Side note: there are Black Separatists as well who have the same ideas, so why is it bad that a white man has that idea?
    As I argued above, the idea of separation includes the premise that the mixing is a negative, therefore it is racism....which is why all of it is "bad".

  3. #353
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You're just throwing up another silly strawman. I never claimed that the Weavers were lying. Why do you keep suggesting that I did? What I said is that there is no definitive way to tell who's lying, and thus we have to judge based on other factors. You suggest that there's no reason to question the Weavers' credibility. The facts suggest that they are bizarre family living off in the woods and are severely paranoid about the U.S. government and have some disturbing ideas about race and separatism. They are perfectly entitled to have those views, but I think it's also perfectly reasonable to conclude that these unusual views make their judgment suspect.

    OTOH, there is also reason to be skeptical of the ATF's actions and their account of events. Even in view of that, however, I find it unlikely that the ATF agents failed to identify themselves before opening fire. Doesn't mean it didn't happen that way, but I find it more likely than not that the kids of the paranoid couple living in the woods overreacted than it is likely that federal agents who are trained to indentify themselves and say, "throw down your weapons" completely ignored their training.
    You did say "Right, so again it comes down to a swearing contest and who you believe. Do you believe a couple of hyped up kids who were raised by seriously paranoid parents, or two trained federal law enforcement officers?" Assuming the correct people to believe are the law.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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  4. #354
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    You did say "Right, so again it comes down to a swearing contest and who you believe. Do you believe a couple of hyped up kids who were raised by seriously paranoid parents, or two trained federal law enforcement officers?" Assuming the correct people to believe are the law.
    Yes, that's right. I think that most of the time, when it comes down to a swearing contest between law enforcement officers and criminal defendants, reasonable people generally assign a higher level of credibility to LEOs.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I didn't.

    You asked who's more credible.

    I'm picking the ones who don't have a documented history of covering up and obfuscating what happened, and whose version was "believed" in court. This strikes me as the more reasonable thing to do.
    You did: "I asked you what the Weavers lied about."
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  6. #356
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    How can the total separation of races where the "mixing" (miscegenation) of races is viewed as a negative not be racist? If the result of a mixed couple is inferior to that of "pure" racial couples, how is that not racist?As I argued above, the idea of separation includes the premise that the mixing is a negative, therefore it is racism....which is why all of it is "bad".
    I do not think it is good or bad. If people want to live that way, let them They believe that conflict will be avoided. Who are they hurting? We have effectively separated ourselves from the Native Americans, we separate ourselves from each other culturally, religiously, politically, even with sports with separate ourselves. It happens all the time. Racial separation is a charged issue. I am not saying it is good by any means, but we separate all the time does it make it any worse just because it is based on race?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  7. #357
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    ....We have effectively separated ourselves from the Native Americans, we separate ourselves from each other culturally, religiously, politically, even with sports with separate ourselves....

    we?

    speak for yourself, please.

  8. #358
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I do not think it is good or bad. If people want to live that way, let them They believe that conflict will be avoided. Who are they hurting? We have effectively separated ourselves from the Native Americans, we separate ourselves from each other culturally, religiously, politically, even with sports with separate ourselves. It happens all the time. Racial separation is a charged issue. I am not saying it is good by any means, but we separate all the time does it make it any worse just because it is based on race?
    You are still avoiding the point, the point that you made was that those who are separatists are not racists. This is false and does not hold up to a simple analysis, a simple test.

    If racial separatism is based on the idea that a mixed union produces inferior offspring, how is that not racism...and therefore a "neutral" (not good or bad) thing?
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 03-10-12 at 03:15 PM.

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You are still avoiding the point, the point that you made was that those who are separatists are not racists. This is false and does not hold up to a simple analysis, a simple test.
    racist: "i hate black people cause they are inferior".

    racial seperatist: "I don't hate black people. I just dont to be anywhere near them. I don't want my children near them. I want to be as far away from them as possible. But I don't hate them".


  10. #360
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    The point she made was that seperatists and Supremacists are different.


    Seperatists are typically non-aggressive as they mostly want to be left alone. Supremacists are more inclined to aggression and violence as they wish to impose a view on others.

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