Thread: Explosive Growth of Militias

Originally Posted by AdamT

You're just ****ing with me now, right?

So not dude. Magna cum laude for.my undergrad in journalism high Honor's with 3.94 Gpa for Masters.

Originally Posted by taxigirl

So not dude. Magma cum laude for.my undergrad in journalism high Honor's with 3.94 Gpa for Masters.

interesting......

Typos keep coming because I am on my kindle in bed. Have.not slept yet

Originally Posted by taxigirl

He and his family were separatists not supremacists, who Just wanted to be left alone.

I'm sorry, did they fabricate their own weapons from trees and rocks? Did they only drink rain water and use solar power?

My point is, "to be left alone" in the united states means you live somewhere off-off the grid and produce everything you need. The Weavers drove cars, right? Separatists, my ass. IMO.

Even living in the woods somewhere, you still benefit from the Clean Air Act and other EPA tree and wildlife protections, and should ante up for that...

Originally Posted by hazlnut

I'm sorry, did they fabricate their own weapons from trees and rocks? Did they only drink rain water and use solar power?

My point is, "to be left alone" in the united states means you live somewhere off-off the grid and produce everything you need. The Weavers drove cars, right? Separatists, my ass. IMO.

Even living in the woods somewhere, you still benefit from the Clean Air Act and other EPA tree and wildlife protections, and should ante up for that...

His family were white separatists, this does not make them racist or anti-semitic as various misinformation campaigns would have you believe. Randy believes that by separating the races we can avoid conflict. Right or Wrong, that is his prerogative and he should not be persecuted for that. I think the "separatist" you are referring to is an "isolationist".

Originally Posted by hazlnut

But when they illegal start selling out of that little armory, we can take it away. Lock them in jail. And put their kids in foster homes. Buh-bye...

Also, Re: "Reason" -- the government has the right to ask: "What'er all the guns for, Cowboy? And could you please show us the permits for each and every weapon in your house? Am I mistaken, or did you illegally modify that weapon?"

All very reasonable questions. And if you don't have the right answers, then buh-bye.. Thank you for playing, your armory will destroyed, care to watch?

I wasn't trying to derail, I was trying to put things in perspective. The far-right seems to suspicious of government at all the wrong times. Just my observation.

(1) They were selling guns illegally from their private collection? Don't know about Idaho, but I can sell any firearm privately that fits the definition of a legal firearm to anyone without obtaining a permit or permission. Nothing illegal there. If the gun was obtained illegally, that is another issues and another violation of the law.
(2) Government has a right to ask "what are all the guns for Cowboy" Why and since when? And, I am not required to have permits to possess weapons. Only to purchase from FFL dealers and to carry concealed. None of these are reasonable questions and are not grounds for confiscation and/or destruction. Nor are any of these questions a ticket to prison.

Seems like the only issue is the sawing off of a shotgun beyond the legal limit. If that happened, than the issue is stupidity. If that situation arose with me, then I would add 5 bucks to the transaction and sell a hacksaw with the package.

Originally Posted by taxigirl

His family were white separatists, this does not make them racist or anti-semitic as various misinformation campaigns would have you believe. Randy believes that by separating the races we can avoid conflict. Right or Wrong, that is his prerogative and he should not be persecuted for that. I think the "separatist" you are referring to is an "isolationist".

he was a member of Aryan Nations, and you don't think he was a racist or an anti-Semite??

Originally Posted by taxigirl

His family were white separatists, this does not make them racist or anti-semitic as various misinformation campaigns would have you believe. Randy believes that by separating the races we can avoid conflict. Right or Wrong, that is his prerogative and he should not be persecuted for that. I think the "separatist" you are referring to is an "isolationist".

Thank you for your explanation.

"avoid conflict" -- nice try.

He was an ignorant racist. IMO.

And, IMO, the world is better off without people who think that way and raise children to think that way.

Originally Posted by jimbo

(1) They were selling guns illegally from their private collection? Don't know about Idaho, but I can sell any firearm privately that fits the definition of a legal firearm to anyone without obtaining a permit or permission. Nothing illegal there. If the gun was obtained illegally, that is another issues and another violation of the law.

He sold a sawed off shotgun to an ATF agent.

(2) Government has a right to ask "what are all the guns for Cowboy" Why and since when?

Since always. Are you a 'collector' or a lunatic? What is the reason that you feel the need to acquire more guns than you have hands to shoot them with?

And, I am not required to have permits to possess weapons. Only to purchase from FFL dealers and to carry concealed.

You just contradicted yourself. Unless you plan on purchasing a weapon and then leaving it at the store.

None of these are reasonable questions and are not grounds for confiscation and/or destruction. Nor are any of these questions a ticket to prison.

They're all perfectly reasonable and the wrong answer will get you locked up. For instance: "No, I don't have a permit for that handgun in my glove box." Or "Yes, I have illegally modified this weapon." Or "I need all these guns to start a race war and bring down the government, it says so on my website."

Seems like the only issue is the sawing off of a shotgun beyond the legal limit. If that happened, than the issue is stupidity. If that situation arose with me, then I would add 5 bucks to the transaction and sell a hacksaw with the package.

Because the spirit of the law is not as important as you finding a way to circumvent it... That kind of mentality makes me sick. You make money, and a stray round goes in kid's back, paralyzing him. Congrats.

Originally Posted by Thunder

he was a member of Aryan Nations, and you don't think he was a racist or an anti-Semite??

He was not a member of the Aryan Nations. His and Vicki's beliefs contradicted theirs. They attended a couple meetings to find out what it was about.

If any of you doubters have the balls I challenge you to read the reports that are linked to in above posts, then come back to me for an educated discussion on the matter. The propaganda you have so easily been suckered into believing is wildly inaccurate.

Randy Weaver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Randy Weaver was considered part of the white supremacist movement by the Federal Government. Believing that he attended the Aryan Nations church and Aryan Nations World Congresses, the U.S. Secret Service and the FBI interviewed Weaver and his wife in 1985. Weaver denied belonging to the Aryan Nations, and the couple cited differences in religious beliefs between themselves and the group.

Weaver was approached at a 1986 Aryan Nations rally by ATF informant Kenneth Faderley (posing as a biker named Gus Magisono) who was investigating Weaver's friend Frank Kumnick. Faderley presented himself as an illegal firearms dealer from New Jersey. Faderley met Weaver again at the 1987 World Congress. Weaver skipped the 1988 Aryan Nations meeting and ran as a candidate for county sheriff (and lost). In 1989, Weaver supplied two modified shotguns to Faderley. The ATF maintained that the weapons supplied by Weaver were illegally shortened when Faderley received them, Weaver has claimed otherwise. The DOJ Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (1994) records that Faderley stated Weaver showed him an unaltered shotgun and Faderley pointed out where he wanted Weaver to cut the gun. The ATF wanted to use Weaver to introduce Faderley to Charles Howarth who was starting a group in Montana, after which the ATF intended to drop the Kumnick and Weaver investigations. Weaver refused to take Faderley to Montana in November 1989 and Faderley was told by his superiors to have no further contact with Weaver.

llegal Dealings

Even though the Weavers disagreed with many of the views held by the Aryan Nations, a white supremacist group, the couple attended several of their meetings throughout the mid to late 1980's. Bikers, skinheads, Klansman and neo-Nazi's usually attended these meetings, however it was common knowledge that undercover agents and informants also attended them in hopes of discovering illegal dealings or terrorist plots. It was during one of these meetings in 1989 that Randy met a tall, heavy-set biker named Guss Magisono. Randy explained to Guss that he had been having a difficult time making ends meet for the past few months, so Guss offered Randy money in exchange for illegal sawed-off shotguns. Randy was reluctant about the deal and only relented after Guss continued to badger him about how much he could earn, promising him that the guns would be sold to inner-city gang members — the plan supposedly being that the black gang members would kill themselves off. Following the Aryan Nation meeting, Randy agreed to meet Guss a few weeks later with two sawed-off shotguns in exchange for $300.00.

What Randy did not know was that Guss Magisono was actually an informant for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) named Kenneth Fadeley. The ATF had previously arrested Fadeley for gunrunning and had offered him clemency in exchange for becoming an undercover informant for the Bureau. What happened next is still in dispute. On October 24, 1989, Randy met with Fadeley at a park in Sandpoint, Idaho, where he supposedly sold him two sawed-off shotguns. What is not known was the exact condition of the guns at the time the exchange was made. Following the sale, Fadeley reported that the guns were sawed-off, however Randy later argued that he had suspected Fadeley of being an undercover agent and that both guns were of legal barrel length at the time of the sale. Randy accused Fadeley of sawing the barrels off later.

All about Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge, by David Lohr — Government Gone Wrong — Crime Library on truTV.com

Regardless of who actually sawed the barrels off, ATF Agent Herbert Byerly submitted a case report to the U.S. Attorney's office in Boise, Idaho, recommending that Randy be prosecuted for the sale of two illegal sawed-off shotguns. On June 12, 1990 Byerly and another agent, Steve Gunderson, approached Randy and offered him a deal. If he would agree to become an informant regarding illegal activities of Aryan Nations' members, the charges against him would be dropped. This would have been a difficult deal for most people to turn down since the sale of sawed-off shotguns is a violation of federal statutes and can result in stiff sentences and fines. Nonetheless, Randy felt he was being set up. He told the agents he had done nothing wrong and that he would not become a "snitch" for the government. Following the brief meeting, Randy called the Aryan Nation headquarters and notified them that the government was trying to infiltrate their organization.[/QUOTE]All about Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge, by David Lohr — Illegal Dealings — Crime Library on truTV.com

The links I have provided in this post are almost accurate. For the most part stories, investigations etc... have been wiped from access. Fortunately I have hard copies of all my research material.