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Thread: Explosive Growth of Militias

  1. #301
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Here-- read the 542-page report on the incident, with redactions unfortunately, which was later determined to hold evidence of a cover up as determined in the various descriptions, press releases, and reports released in 2001 and later. Go to Welcome to the United States Department of Justice and search "Ruby Ridge 2001". It is amazing what the government will admit to after the smoke has cleared, the FOIA is enforced and different people are in control.
    There doesn't seem to be a page 542.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    And the Weavers didn't. Wait, didn't each of the kids get $1,000,000? And couldn't they have been charged with the murder of a federal agent?
    Yes, they received money as compensation for the insane incompetence and illegal activity of the government. Kevin Harris was acquitted for killing agent Bill Degan. Sammy Weaver was shot IN THE BACK and killed, so no he could not have been charged.

    Lon Horiuchi, the agent who killed Vicki Weaver was indicted for a federal charge of manslaughter which was dismissed due to the supremacy clause. He was then charged for manslaughter by the State of Idaho. Eventually (2001 I believe) the county prosecutor dropped the charges because he felt it was unlikely the state could prove the case and too much time had passed. The special prosecutor for the case disagreed.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  3. #303
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Yes, they received money as compensation for the insane incompetence and illegal activity of the government. Kevin Harris was acquitted for killing agent Bill Degan. Sammy Weaver was shot IN THE BACK and killed, so no he could not have been charged.

    Lon Horiuchi, the agent who killed Vicki Weaver was indicted for a federal charge of manslaughter which was dismissed due to the supremacy clause. He was then charged for manslaughter by the State of Idaho. Eventually (2001 I believe) the county prosecutor dropped the charges because he felt it was unlikely the state could prove the case and too much time had passed. The special prosecutor for the case disagreed.
    Right, so again it comes down to a swearing contest and who you believe. Do you believe a couple of hyped up kids who were raised by seriously paranoid parents, or two trained federal law enforcement officers?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    There doesn't seem to be a page 542.
    The following document, which is contained in the attached files, is the full text of the task force's unreleased 542-page report, which was obtained by LEXIS COUNSEL CONNECT.

    In the hard copy of this document, some material has been deleted and marked by the word "Garrity," apparently referring to U.S. Supreme Court opinion Garrity v. New Jersey (1967). UnderGarrity, government employees must be granted immunity from criminal prosecution if they provide information during an administrative investigation.
    Maybe the redactions caused the shortage. Lexis obtained the report from the DOJ. The report in its entirety is not available on the DOJ website, however reports of the report are, I don't know why this makes sense, the DOJ says "yes there is a report, here are our reports about the report and a few pages of it" You can also find mainstream media reports about the report online.

    Blech.

    Originally in 2001 there was an admission that the original investigation and report contained errors and cover up. The reports of the report you can now find admit that as well, but the full text of the..... let's see if I get this right..... report of the reports of the report is not available.

    Get it yet?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Right, so again it comes down to a swearing contest and who you believe. Do you believe a couple of hyped up kids who were raised by seriously paranoid parents, or two trained federal law enforcement officers?
    One "hyped up kid" and one dead kid, who was SHOT IN THE BACK and a dead dog.
    "Don't call Randy Weaver paranoid. His worst fears about the government have come true." -Jonathan Karl.
    I do believe the final report of the reports or the report, which include an investigation of the multiple investigations that took place.

    I hope you are getting the point that the government admits there was a cover up and the ATF and FBI really screwed this one up.

    Now, to get more convoluted and controversial.... are you aware that some of the commanding officers at Ruby Ridge also took part in executing the attack on Waco? No, I am not McVeigh's reincarnation, but.... ready for some inductive reasoning?
    "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
    Last edited by taxigirl; 03-10-12 at 02:32 AM.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    There doesn't seem to be a page 542.
    The last section begins on page 528 and there are no page numbers, so it's not clear how many pages there would be printed.

    But even if there isn't -- sure, go ahead and dismiss the entire thing just because taxigirl misstated the apparent number of pages. Go ahead and ignore the massive sections on FBI obfuscation and prosecutorial misconduct, and their pretrial misdeeds. If it makes you feel better . . .

    With all of that misconduct, and with the acquittals of everyone involved with the Weavers, gosh, it's SO tough to imagine some ATF agents lying to cover asses.
    ďOffing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.Ē-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The last section begins on page 528 and there are no page numbers, so it's not clear how many pages there would be printed.

    But even if there isn't -- sure, go ahead and dismiss the entire thing just because taxigirl misstated the apparent number of pages. Go ahead and ignore the massive sections on FBI obfuscation and prosecutorial misconduct, and their pretrial misdeeds. If it makes you feel better . . .

    With all of that misconduct, and with the acquittals of everyone involved with the Weavers, gosh, it's SO tough to imagine some ATF agents lying to cover asses.
    Sorry, but I was just pointing out that I couldn't locate the page she referenced. Down boy. Down!

    You and Taxigirl are obviously determined to accept the Weavers' version of events, admitting no possiblity that they were partly at fault. I'm not. I think they could be telling the truth, but think it's somewhat more likely that the ATF agents are telling the truth, or both sides are telling partial truths, or, as likely, they both think they're telling the truth about what happened in a frenzied, frightening blur.

    Regardless of who started it, it's obvious that both sides screwed up to create the ensuing mess. The Weavers should have surrendered and the Feds should have been much less aggressive.
    Last edited by AdamT; 03-10-12 at 11:22 AM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Weaver sold sawed-off shotguns to an ATF agent.
    Oops, there it is...

    Seriously, Ruby Ridge? How many more decades are they going to cling to that as an excuse to have their own little armories?

    But the same gun folks will support Bush for invading Iraq based on a lie. We toppled a country based on a lie. And we tortured people. Those are war crimes.

    And they're still talking about poor Randy Weaver up in his cabin, minding his own business.... That's the same mentality that got OJ off... "Well, the LAPD planted evidence, so he was innocent." No. He murdered his wife and the LAPD stupidly tried to make the case stronger. Yes, AFT made mistakes, people were killed. But the Weavers reaped what they sowed and now the kids are millionaires.

    You stockpile guns and ammo, and commit a crime (illegally selling weapons), or plan to commit a crime, I hope the ATF takes you down. I have no sympathy for you. But the families that WERE minding their own business in Bagdad when we rained hellfire down on them... Killing truly innocent people. Feel sorry for them.

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Right, so again it comes down to a swearing contest and who you believe. Do you believe a couple of hyped up kids who were raised by seriously paranoid parents, or two trained federal law enforcement officers?

    I AM a former law enforcement officer, and I just dropped in to tell you that LEO's can and do lie just like any other human being, when they think their ass is on the line. Having LE before your name is no guarantor of your ethics or honesty.

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Sorry, but I was just pointing out that I couldn't locate the page she referenced. Down boy. Down!
    She didn't reference a page.

    You and Taxigirl are obviously determined to accept the Weavers' version of events, admitting no possiblity that they were partly at fault.
    No, that's your strawman. My comments regarded a single point, and that single point alone.


    I'm not. I think they could be telling the truth, but think it's somewhat more likely that the ATF agents are telling the truth, or both sides are telling partial truths, or, as likely, they both think they're telling the truth about what happened in a frenzied, frightening blur.
    There's a whole 500+ page report on FBI/government CYA government misconduct in the prosecution and trial.

    What did the Weavers lie about?
    ďOffing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.Ē-- Bernadine Dohrn

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