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Thread: Explosive Growth of Militias

  1. #291
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    From what I've read there's no question that the Feds screwed this up big time. On the other hand ... no one would have gotten killed if the Weavers had simply come out with their hands up.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    From what I've read there's no question that the Feds screwed this up big time. On the other hand ... no one would have gotten killed if the Weavers had simply come out with their hands up.
    The kids and dog were shot at while they were walking down a trail. The other Weavers were not aware that the FBI and ATF had taken up camp on Ruby Ridge. There was no one for them to surrender to. Once your family is shot at and members are killed and you already do not trust the government AND you have not done anything wrong why would you walk down the hill, unable to protect yourself and "surrender". They shot Vicki Weaver as she stood in her doorway with a baby in her arms, a baby. They posed no danger to anyone. Yes, by common standards they were "weird" but not dangerous.

    Would you like an explanation of the cover up that ensued, the report eventually issued by the DOJ and a list of sanctions the agents and commanding officers received due to the incident? I have to type it in because my thesis is on a floppy and I just have not bothered to have it transferred and it is a real pain to transcribe everything from the hard copy. I am willing to provide any more answers you may have with citations included.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  3. #293
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    The kids and dog were shot at while they were walking down a trail. The other Weavers were not aware that the FBI and ATF had taken up camp on Ruby Ridge. There was no one for them to surrender to. Once your family is shot at and members are killed and you already do not trust the government AND you have not done anything wrong why would you walk down the hill, unable to protect yourself and "surrender". They shot Vicki Weaver as she stood in her doorway with a baby in her arms, a baby. They posed no danger to anyone. Yes, by common standards they were "weird" but not dangerous.

    Would you like an explanation of the cover up that ensued, the report eventually issued by the DOJ and a list of sanctions the agents and commanding officers received due to the incident? I have to type it in because my thesis is on a floppy and I just have not bothered to have it transferred and it is a real pain to transcribe everything from the hard copy. I am willing to provide any more answers you may have with citations included.
    Well yes, that is their version of the story. The ATF agents tell a different, and IMO more believable version. They were surveying the property when the Weavers' dogs alerted the boys who came out and fired shots. They returned fire.

    Perhaps the Weavers didn't know that federal agents were involved at first, but they had to know by the second day of the siege.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  4. #294
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well yes, that is their version of the story. The ATF agents tell a different, and IMO more believable version. They were surveying the property when the Weavers' dogs alerted the boys who came out and fired shots. They returned fire.
    I think there's a difference between "more believable" and what you'd rather believe.

    Given the totality of everything that happened, it's perfectly believable that the ATF agents were in CYA mode.
    ďOffing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.Ē-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well yes, that is their version of the story. The ATF agents tell a different, and IMO more believable version. They were surveying the property when the Weavers' dogs alerted the boys who came out and fired shots. They returned fire.

    Perhaps the Weavers didn't know that federal agents were involved at first, but they had to know by the second day of the siege.
    As I stated "Once your family is shot at and members are killed and you already do not trust the government AND you have not done anything wrong why would you walk down the hill, unable to protect yourself and "surrender"."

    Your suggestion does not take into account that people were already dead and the Rules of Engagement had changed (illegally). Though the Weavers were not aware of the orders this shows they should have been afraid and did the right thing by staying at their cabin. It also shows that the various arms of the DOJ acted in a manner that is contrary to established procedure.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  6. #296
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    As I stated "Once your family is shot at and members are killed and you already do not trust the government AND you have not done anything wrong why would you walk down the hill, unable to protect yourself and "surrender"."

    Your suggestion does not take into account that people were already dead and the Rules of Engagement had changed (illegally). Though the Weavers were not aware of the orders this shows they should have been afraid and did the right thing by staying at their cabin. It also shows that the various arms of the DOJ acted in a manner that is contrary to established procedure.
    Um, I think Mrs. Weaver would be alive today if they had surrendered, so I have a hard time concluding that they did the right thing. Distrusting the government isn't a justification for engaging in an armed siege.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  7. #297
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I think there's a difference between "more believable" and what you'd rather believe.
    I agree. And I'm pretty sure I know what you want to believe.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I agree. And I'm pretty sure I know what you want to believe.
    Sure. I want to believe the facts.

    And the facts say the ATF agents had a lot of reason to CYA. (See, I thought I already explained this, but I guess it didn't work.)
    ďOffing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.Ē-- Bernadine Dohrn

  9. #299
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Sure. I want to believe the facts.

    And the facts say the ATF agents had a lot of reason to CYA. (See, I thought I already explained this, but I guess it didn't work.)
    And the Weavers didn't. Wait, didn't each of the kids get $1,000,000? And couldn't they have been charged with the murder of a federal agent?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I agree. And I'm pretty sure I know what you want to believe.
    Here-- read the 542-page report on the incident, with redactions unfortunately, which was later determined to hold evidence of a cover up as determined in the various descriptions, press releases, and reports released in 2001 and later. Go to Welcome to the United States Department of Justice and search "Ruby Ridge 2001". It is amazing what the government will admit to after the smoke has cleared, the FOIA is enforced and different people are in control.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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