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Thread: Explosive Growth of Militias

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    You are correct. The reason we do not hear about many of these groups anymore is because the FBI and ATF have become pretty efficient in getting to them before something happens. The problem is are they also going after groups that are not attempting illegal activity (ex. Randy Weaver).
    Weaver sold sawed-off shotguns to an ATF agent.

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    So I guess you were a big fan of the patriot act then
    Please explain what in my post would indicate that.

    Not fearing one's government is much different than questioning actions/motives, reading about policy change and voicing concerns.

    Living in Paranoia vs. staying current on shifts in policy and voting for fair-minded and pragmatic legislators.

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Weaver sold sawed-off shotguns to an ATF agent.


    There's actually a LOT more to it than that, but some other time...

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Weaver sold sawed-off shotguns to an ATF agent.
    Educate yourself. Weaver was acquitted of all charges except failure to show up in court and a bail violation. His family was awarded over 3 million dollars for the deliberate and incompetent actions of the ATF and FBI. You do not want to argue this one with me.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Educate yourself. Weaver was acquitted of all charges except failure to show up in court and a bail violation. His family was awarded over 3 million dollars for the deliberate and incompetent actions of the ATF and FBI. You do not want to argue this one with me.
    Hon- he wants to argue with anyone and everyone on every and anything.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Educate yourself. Weaver was acquitted of all charges except failure to show up in court and a bail violation....
    was he aqcuited of selling an illegal weapon?

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Weaver sold sawed-off shotguns to an ATF agent.
    here is the full story

    1) weaver's wife was sick and he advertised a shotgun to sell so he could pay for her treatment

    2) a federal agent was attempting to get former Green Beret Weaver to infiltrate a white supremacist group and they figured a green beret who was a white SEPARATIST would be ideal

    3) weaver refused to be a rat

    4) the agent asked him to cut the barrel off and he would buy it. he told weaver that the legal limit was 16"

    that is true for rifles not shotguns-its 18" for shotguns but weaver relied on the agent's representations and he cut the barrel slightly shorter than legal limits

    5) the warrant to appear was sent to a wrong address on purpose and when that resulted in weaver not appearing the kill team was sent after him

    6) his son sammy and a friend along with a dog were hunting. The dog started barking at a Deputy marshall who shot the dog. the boy shot towards the agent but dropped his weapon and ran towards home when his father screamed for him to run away

    7) DM Degan shot the boy in the back killing him. Weaver friend Kevin Harris then killed the marshall. THe court cleared Harris of the shooting ruling it was justifiable. the marshall would have been indicted for second degree murder if he had not been killed

    several people died due to a stupid gun law

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Educate yourself. Weaver was acquitted of all charges except failure to show up in court and a bail violation. His family was awarded over 3 million dollars for the deliberate and incompetent actions of the ATF and FBI. You do not want to argue this one with me.
    that Kevin Harris's killing of a federal law enforcement agent was ruled JUSTIFIABLE meant that the dead fed engaged in activity that justified him being shot dead--ie he engaged in activity that caused a reasonable man to believe that the dead agent was engaged in illegal activity likely to cause severe bodily injury or death to an innocent person

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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    was he aqcuited of selling an illegal weapon?
    Weaver was ACQUITTED of ALL charges except failure to appear in a court and a bail violation. These occurred because he was an idiot and did not file a change of address in time and a change of date for the court appearance notice went to the wrong address.

    Now, as I was investigating this topic for my Masters Thesis "Ruby Ridge, Waco and Oklahoma City: Lessons in Crisis Mismanagement from the FBI and ATF" I discovered... hmmm hold on a minute I am trying to decide which example to provide as there is a lot of information...
    "Richard Rogers the head of the Hostage Rescue Team decided that the Rules of Engagement needed to be revised. The FBI's standard rules of engagement stipulate that agents cannot fire unless someone's life is in danger.

    (for some reason my format options are not working)Indent--FBI special agent's may use deadly forces only when necessary, when the special agent has a reasonable belief that the subject of such force possesses an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the special agent of another person. If feasible , a verbal warning to submit to the authority of the special agent shall be given prior to the use of deadly force. (FBI Frequently Asked Questions Online Circa 2001).--Indent end

    Rogers rewrote the rules to read, "If any adult is seen with a weapon in the vicinity of where this firefight took place, of the Weaver cabin then this individual could be the subject of deadly force (Walter 32). Potts (previously explained in the paper to be commander on the ground)gave preliminary approval for the rules, but during a meeting at the scene Rogers told his assistant to change the wording from "could" to "can and should be the subject of deadly force". This rewording is what came to be the core of the problems that resulted from the Ruby Ridge incident."


    Thunder, I would like you to note that the DOJ was never asked nor notified of the change in Rules of Engagement.

    My citation for Walter: Walter, Jess "Every Knee Shall Bow" Newsweek 28, August 1995: 29-33.

    Any questions anyone? Most of what you will find on the internet these days is BS, as it is a misinformation campaign.

    Please, as I said, you do not want to argue this with me.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  10. #290
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    Re: Explosive Growth of Militias

    Larry Potts should have been at least investigated for Murder since he gave those illegal orders

    They claim that Harris and Weaver were trying to shoot at an FBI helicopter

    it was FIVE MILES away at the time Lon Horiuchi shot Vicky weaver

    (an FBI agent I know explained that shot as a mistake-he claimed LH was trying to shoot a running Kevin Harris (still illegal since Harris was not threatening anyone) and didn't know how to lead a running target properly and hit Sarah Weaver)

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