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Explosive Growth of Militias

Gimmesometruth said:
Wow, you do not remember what I posted or the response you gave to that "point". I already covered that.

Are you EVER going to admit that racial separatism is at base a racist ideology due to the fact it views miscegenation as a negative?

Please, stop going around in circles and just address this point...
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It is as if I am, or the Weavers for that matter advocating for anti-miscegenation laws. It is their choice to live separate and who are we to judge that. If you judge it as racist then that is what it is to you. I see it as a different view that is unpopular and contributes to the perception that the Weavers are weird and icky. What is left of the Weaver family does not live in a separatist community, they keep to themselves and have no plans to spread their ideas. If it was happening on a larger scale, yes that would be racism and there would be a problem. n this particular case I do not believe that the idea of racism is appropriate.
 
taxigirl said:
It is as if I am, or the Weavers for that matter advocating for anti-miscegenation laws.
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Nope, you are missing the point
It is their choice to live separate and who are we to judge that.
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Well, we CAN judge that for what it is. You claimed they, believers in separatism, are not racist. I say that people who do hold to that belief system ARE racist.
If you judge it as racist then that is what it is to you. I see it as a different view that is unpopular and contributes to the perception that the Weavers are weird and icky.
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Hmm....but you do contradict this later...
What is left of the Weaver family does not live in a separatist community, they keep to themselves and have no plans to spread their ideas. If it was happening on a larger scale, yes that would be racism and there would be a problem. n this particular case I do not believe that the idea of racism is appropriate.
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You admit that if white separatism is happening as defined on a "larger scale", that it would be racism. You just admitted to it being a racist ideology since its practice would be racism. The remaining problem is the "scale" issue, it does not matter the size, it is a racist ideology. The Weavers believing in it did make them racists.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Nope, you are missing the pointWell, we CAN judge that for what it is. You claimed they, believers in separatism, are not racist. I say that peole how do hold to that belief system ARE racist.Hmm....but you do contradict this later...You admit that if white separatism is happening as defined on a "larger scale", that it would be racism. You just admitted to it being a racist ideology since its practice would be racism. The remaining problem is the "scale" issue, it does not matter the size, it is a racist ideology. The Weavers believing in it did make them racists.
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Does that justify the way Randy Weaver was entrapped, then his son and wife were killed through unlawful and negligent actions of government agents?

THAT is the point of this part of the debate. Holding weird and unpopular views is not a capital offense.

For instance, I think the Branch Davidians were weird and wrong. I don't think they deserved the Reno Raid or the gov't Bonfire treatment because of it.
 
The law protects the weird and icky, too, if they haven't done anything illegal.

If it doesn't, what other weird and icky groups should we single out for bring trampled, with little care for actual guilt?
 
Goshin said:
Does that justify the way Randy Weaver was entrapped, then his son and wife were killed through unlawful and negligent actions of government agents?

THAT is the point of this part of the debate. Holding weird and unpopular views is not a capital offense.

For instance, I think the Branch Davidians were weird and wrong. I don't think they deserved the Reno Raid or the gov't Bonfire treatment because of it.
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No, that is NOT the point of the debate between taxigirl and I.

You ARE NOT following along with our (taxigirl and I), "this part", of the debate.....AT ALL.
 
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Gimmesometruth said:
No, that is NOT the point of the debate between taxigirl and I.

You ARE NOT following along with our (taxigirl and I) debate.....AT ALL.
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Actually I am. I get that you're arguing with her whether they are racists.

I'm saying that isn't the point in the context of this thread. The point is whether they deserved their treatment at the hands of gov't.


These days, lotta people are comfortable with the idea of persecuting racists whether they've done anything or not.....
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Nope, you are missing the pointWell, we CAN judge that for what it is. You claimed they, believers in separatism, are not racist. I say that people who do hold to that belief system ARE racist.Hmm....but you do contradict this later...You admit that if white separatism is happening as defined on a "larger scale", that it would be racism. You just admitted to it being a racist ideology since its practice would be racism. The remaining problem is the "scale" issue, it does not matter the size, it is a racist ideology. The Weavers believing in it did make them racists.
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it makes them want to be left alone. They are afraid of anything that is different than what they know and do not want to be exposed to it. Randy pretty much wants everyone to leave him alone. If you want to call him a racist then do so, I do not agree.
 
Goshin said:
Actually I am. I get that you're arguing with her whether they are racists.

I'm saying that isn't the point in the context of this thread. The point is whether they deserved their treatment at the hands of gov't.


These days, lotta people are comfortable with the idea of persecuting racists whether they've done anything or not.....
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You are trying to drawn me into YOUR debate. I don't really care about your debate, you don't care about MY debate. I am NOT trying to draw you into to it, why are try to draw me into YOURS?
 
Harshaw said:
The law protects the weird and icky, too, if they haven't done anything illegal.

If it doesn't, what other weird and icky groups should we single out for bring trampled, with little care for actual guilt?
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There's that word again, icky. :2dance:
 
taxigirl said:
it makes them want to be left alone. They are afraid of anything that is different than what they know and do not want to be exposed to it. Randy pretty much wants everyone to leave him alone. If you want to call him a racist then do so, I do not agree.
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If Randy believes in a racist ideology, an ideology that you admit is racist, then sorry, you are wrong, that does make him a racist....unless you are tossing logic and fact out the window along with not realizing what racial separatism entails.
 
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Gimmesometruth said:
You are trying to drawn me into YOUR debate. I don't really care about your debate, you don't care about MY debate. I am NOT trying to draw you into to it, why are try to draw me into YOURS?
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:lamo


Okay bud, knock yourself out.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
You are trying to drawn me into YOUR debate. I don't really care about your debate, you don't care about MY debate. I am NOT trying to draw you into to it, why are try to draw me into YOURS?
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Look, racism is not what we were talking about here. If you want to argue the dangers of separatism, start another thread. I will participate and we can discuss all the things you want me to say right now. Our point is that it does not matter what a wacked out nutty weird, racist, sexist, homophobic, *I do not know if these are all correct) doomsayer believed, he did not deserve the treatment he received from our government who is supposed to protect us from real threats. The true crazy people here turned out to be the FBI and ATF, they were prejudice against a weirdo.

I don't care if he is David Duke, as much as I would like to punch that guy in the face a few hundred times, he is entitled to his opinion .
 
taxigirl said:
Look, racism is not what we were talking about here.
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WTF? You brought it up!!! You defended the Weavers as not being racists.
If you want to argue the dangers of separatism, start another thread.
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Separatism IS part of the Militia movement....it will be a subtext to the discussion....sheesh!
I will participate and we can discuss all the things you want me to say right now. Our point is that it does not matter what a wacked out nutty weird, racist, sexist, homophobic, *I do not know if these are all correct) doomsayer believed, he did not deserve the treatment he received from our government who is supposed to protect us from real threats. The true crazy people here turned out to be the FBI and ATF, they were prejudice against a weirdo.
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That is YOUR separate argument, you just can't defend your claim that the Weavers "were not racists". They were if they believed in white separatism.

I don't care if he is David Duke, as much as I would like to punch that guy in the face a few hundred times, he is entitled to his opinion .
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If you claimed he was or is not a racist, you would still be just as wrong about him as you are about the Weavers.


PS...why did you respond to the comment for another and not the one directed to you?
 
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Gimmesometruth said:
WTF? You brought it up!!! You defended the Weavers as not being racists. Separatism IS part of the Militia movement....it will be a subtext to the discussion....sheesh!That is YOUR separate argument, you just can't defend your claim that the Weavers "were not racists". They were if they believed in white separatism.

If you claimed he was or is not a racist, you would still be just as wrong about him as you are about the Weavers.
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Gimmsometruth,

Yes i said "His family were white separatists, this does not make them racist ". If this is true than Weaver is every type of "ist" there is because he just wants to be left alone. It does not make him racist because he wants to be separate from everyone. At this point I don't blame him.

Just as he would not want someone of a different race near him he would not want the Bill Maher near him, me, you. Goshin, Pamela Anderson, Larry Flint, Dick Cheney etc... etc... get it?
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Separatism IS part of the Militia movement
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:doh No, it's not. That's idiotic. Separatism goes against the entire notion of a "militia" in every way possible.

Militia =/= separatist.

Militia =/= white supremacist.

Militia = members of a community coming together for mutual defense.
 
Harshaw said:
Yes, and WHY I asked that is plainly evident from my post. :roll:

It's clear by now you have no intention of approaching this honestly. Like I said:

You are simply picking the latter, in spite of the evidence.
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If you're trying to be honest why are you LYING even about the questions you're asking? You've already made up your mind that the anti-government whackjobs are above reproach and anyone who has a different opiniion is -- according to you -- just not being honest. :2rofll:
 
hazlnut said:
Attention: Straw Man, Straw Man, Straw Man....


We don't protect criminals or enable them to acquire weapons.



Please show me specifically what I said that is "pervasive of that thinking."

You break the law. You go to jail.

You do something suspicious, police can stop and ask a question...

You post on Free Republic something that indicates you may be advocating or considering an overt act, then the FBI / ATF has the right to knock on your door and see how serious you are. If you're just a pimple faced fat kid in a basement, then no worries. But if you've got blueprints of a building on the wall of your basement... Then buh-bye, smart guy... And thanks for the free guns. We'll have fun destroying them. BTW - if you are willing to cooperate and tell us where you got all the guns, maybe you'll only do 10 years instead of 20...

And why do you want equal protection for gun owners and not homosexuals and/or muslims?
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Im going to quote you again :
Since always. Are you a 'collector' or a lunatic? What is the reason that you feel the need to acquire more guns than you have hands to shoot them with?
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It does not matter why someone feels they need more guns, they have the right to have them and you advocate control of that right. You seem to have an intense dislike of militia groups and advocate all sorts of law enforcement operations against them. Im not conducting a straw man at all, your words implicate you enough.
 
taxigirl said:
Does anybody even know what we are talking about here? I believe the OP was on the growth of militias. I provided some very nice links and they were ignored. So we started discussing crazy militia people. Randy Weaver came up and that got me excited, because yes, as much as some of you would like to not believe I am an authority when it comes to Ruby Ridge. If you do not want to read the information I generously provided from my list of referenced work, then fine. I suggest that if you do not want to expand your knowledge on what is obviously still a heated to-pic that you find something else to spout about. I appreciate opinions and hearing theories, but when it comes to Ruby Ridge my research and defense of my thesis put me at a great advantage over you and some of your arguments are just downright silly at this point because you have not taken the time to review established facts. You are behaving just like Randy and Vicki Weaver as you just wanted you belief and not allow it to change regardless of the information at hand.

My whole point here was to provide good solid info. and show you that not all "crazies" with guns are wrong. The government did indeed come after him. He was right! we need to prevent that from happening again.
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I discussed your links at length, which I believe you ignored completely. In short, several of the the links you provided for "legitimate civilian militias" provide ample probable cause for these toy soldiers to be put under observation.
 
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Goshin said:
Does that justify the way Randy Weaver was entrapped, then his son and wife were killed through unlawful and negligent actions of government agents?

THAT is the point of this part of the debate. Holding weird and unpopular views is not a capital offense.

For instance, I think the Branch Davidians were weird and wrong. I don't think they deserved the Reno Raid or the gov't Bonfire treatment because of it.
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They do have something in common, which is that they both could have avoided their tragic ends if they had simply surrendered to authorities.
 
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