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Barack Obama pushes for $1bn green tax credits

Catawba said:
There are no reserves of cheap oil 100x demand. If there were, the GOP would have drilled it during the years they were in control of the presidency and both houses of Congress.

If there were plenty of of oil in the US their would have been no need for the GOP to invade Iraq and change their oil laws.
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Hypotheticals and rhetoric are pointless.
 
jonny5 said:
How is that obvious?
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It's obvious in the sense of probability and statistics. Oil drilling causes large and small environmental problems. Drastically increasing the amount of drilling will have a concomitant effect on the number of environmental problems.
 
AdamT said:
It's obvious in the sense of probability and statistics. Oil drilling causes large and small environmental problems. Drastically increasing the amount of drilling will have a concomitant effect on the number of environmental problems.
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And that is not even considering what the affects of increasing our oil usage (beyond just the drilling) would be for the environment.
 
jonny5 said:
Hypotheticals and rhetoric are pointless.
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Back up your claim if you can and show us the 100x demand sources of cheap oil???
 
AdamT said:
It's obvious in the sense of probability and statistics. Oil drilling causes large and small environmental problems. Drastically increasing the amount of drilling will have a concomitant effect on the number of environmental problems.
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It obvious that we have benefited exponentially more from the use of oil than any environmental effects its had. Trillions upon trillions in wealth created, hundreds of thousands of jobs. Innovation, quality of life, tens of thousands of petroleum based products, trillions of miles of travel. Damn near everything we use is in some way connected to oil.
 
jonny5 said:
It obvious that we have benefited exponentially more from the use of oil than any environmental effects its had. Trillions upon trillions in wealth created, hundreds of thousands of jobs. Innovation, quality of life, tens of thousands of petroleum based products, trillions of miles of travel. Damn near everything we use is in some way connected to oil.
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You have already made it clear you have no concern for environmental and health damage that future generations will have to deal with, as long as your prices can be kept down now for yourself, so who gives a **** what you think?
 
Catawba said:
Back up your claim if you can and show us the 100x demand sources of cheap oil???
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Easy.

http://www.eia.gov/international/reserves.html

1400 billion barrels of oil proven as of 2009. The world consumed 90 billion barrels in 2009. So thats 10x right there. Only the US has another 1.4 trillion of technically recoverable oil, and the rest of the world keeps finding more oil every year, so up we go.

http://energyforamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Energy-InventoryFINAL.pdf

Providence surges on Irish oil discovery - FT.com
Oil discovered 24 km from Tel Aviv coastline - JPost - Headlines
Oil belt found in South China Sea|Economy|chinadaily.com.cn

I can go on.
 
Catawba said:
You have already made it clear you have no concern for environmental and health damage that future generations will have to deal with, as long as your prices can be kept down now for yourself, so who gives a **** what you think?
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You keep responding, so I guess you do.
 
Catawba said:
You have already made it clear you have no concern for environmental and health damage that future generations will have to deal with, as long as your prices can be kept down now for yourself, so who gives a **** what you think?
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This is what is boils down to right here. Future generations ability to use oil + earth < you wanting slightly cheaper gas. Greed at its finest.
 
jonny5 said:
Easy.

http://www.eia.gov/international/reserves.html

1400 billion barrels of oil proven as of 2009. The world consumed 90 billion barrels in 2009. So thats 10x right there. Only the US has another 1.4 trillion of technically recoverable oil, and the rest of the world keeps finding more oil every year, so up we go.

http://energyforamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Energy-InventoryFINAL.pdf

Providence surges on Irish oil discovery - FT.com
Oil discovered 24 km from Tel Aviv coastline - JPost - Headlines
Oil belt found in South China Sea|Economy|chinadaily.com.cn

I can go on.
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Go on all you want, you still haven't proven your claim of 100x demand of cheap oil. Recoverable oil, does not mean affordable oil, which is why prices have continued go up over the last two decades, and why the US military warned that we could see shortages of cheap oil as soon as 2015, with serious economic consequences!
 
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muciti said:
This is what is boils down to right here. Future generations ability to use oil + earth < you wanting slightly cheaper gas. Greed at its finest.
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But, if you and Catawba are claiming that the future of energy is not oil, then it would follow that there is no need to conserve the reserves for the future.

In the meantime, you do realize that the debt being left for those future generations is currently over $50K each and climbing.

At present, no alternate energy is economically viable and therefore must be subsidized. Leaving still more debt for those future generations you care so much about.

For me, a sound energy policy would embrace both the needs of the now and future. So, I guess my position would be oil and nuclear for the now, and sensible research for the future. Not raise the price of fossil and nuclear by limiting supply in order to increase the price to make alternate more competitive.
 
muciti said:
This is what is boils down to right here. Future generations ability to use oil + earth < you wanting slightly cheaper gas. Greed at its finest.
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With all due respect, it isn't about greed, or I should say not just about greed. Do we all want cheeper stuff? Yes, I'd say we do, we are constantly looking for ways to save the money we earn for ourselves. Is that greed?

Second, what about those that are living on lifes razors edge? Paycheck, to paycheck that make the decisions every day between food, heat, gas, and or, other necessary life costs? We don't have different levels of gas price....Every penny Obama takes out of the economy in order to 'nudge' us into green energy that is yet unsustainable, and unproven, is another penny taken out of the economy forever. It kills jobs, it kills savings, it kills standard of living in this country....But pfft, who cares about that, its all just greed right?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
With all due respect, it isn't about greed, or I should say not just about greed. Do we all want cheeper stuff? Yes, I'd say we do, we are constantly looking for ways to save the money we earn for ourselves. Is that greed?

Second, what about those that are living on lifes razors edge? Paycheck, to paycheck that make the decisions every day between food, heat, gas, and or, other necessary life costs? We don't have different levels of gas price....Every penny Obama takes out of the economy in order to 'nudge' us into green energy that is yet unsustainable, and unproven, is another penny taken out of the economy forever. It kills jobs, it kills savings, it kills standard of living in this country....But pfft, who cares about that, its all just greed right?


j-mac
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Second, what about those that are living on lifes razors edge? Paycheck, to paycheck that make the decisions every day between food, heat, gas, and or, other necessary life costs?
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If they cant afford gas, they can get on a bus. Or walk. Or ride a bike. I dont care. Saying people are living paycheck to paycheck is no reason to destroy the Earth. There is no direct line there.

We don't have different levels of gas price
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I am not sure the point of this part of your statement. But every gas station I have ever been to has had 3 different choices for gas at different prices.

Every penny Obama takes out of the economy in order to 'nudge' us into green energy that is yet unsustainable, and unproven, is another penny taken out of the economy forever.
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So you dont think the technology is worth investing in? Green energy is never going to be sustainable or proven unless you invest in it.
It kills jobs, it kills savings, it kills standard of living in this country
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Be clear. What is killing jobs?
 
jimbo said:
But, if you and Catawba are claiming that the future of energy is not oil, then it would follow that there is no need to conserve the reserves for the future.
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You have no idea of all the critical uses for oil that don't involve burning it for fuel, do you?

In the meantime, you do realize that the debt being left for those future generations is currently over $50K each and climbing.
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Most of our debt is from unpaid for wars. Perhaps we need to decrease the number of decade long optional wars, and stop spending as much on the military as the rest of the world combined!

At present, no alternate energy is economically viable and therefore must be subsidized. Leaving still more debt for those future generations you care so much about.
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I would rather subsidize the development of clean energy than subsidizing in blood and dollars our oil use from the middle east.

For me, a sound energy policy would embrace both the needs of the now and future. So, I guess my position would be oil and nuclear for the now, and sensible research for the future. Not raise the price of fossil and nuclear by limiting supply in order to increase the price to make alternate more competitive.
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The US government does not control world oil prices, and no one is limiting supply, that's what you seem to have trouble getting through your head.
 
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muciti said:
If they cant afford gas, they can get on a bus. Or walk. Or ride a bike. I dont care. Saying people are living paycheck to paycheck is no reason to destroy the Earth. There is no direct line there.
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Wow...This is a telling statement.

I am not sure the point of this part of your statement. But every gas station I have ever been to has had 3 different choices for gas at different prices.
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Oh, so you think that is class pricing?

So you dont think the technology is worth investing in? Green energy is never going to be sustainable or proven unless you invest in it.
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If it is worth it then it will be invested in by private investors...I don't need to be forced by government to invest in anything....BTW, show me where this is in the constitution that government can force me to invest in a Presidents pipe dream?

Be clear. What is killing jobs?
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Current administration policies.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
If it is worth it then it will be invested in by private investors...I don't need to be forced by government to invest in anything....BTW, show me where this is in the constitution that government can force me to invest in a Presidents pipe dream?
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Tough titty said the kitty, I didn't want to invest in the Iraq war on behalf of big oil either.



Current administration policies.
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What specific administration policies? Do your talking points include definitions?
 
Catawba said:
Tough titty said the kitty, I didn't want to invest in the Iraq war on behalf of big oil either.
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Difference is that the military is in the constitution, forcing me to waste billions of tax dollars in failed green energy plants where the greedy bundlers for Obama get their payback on is not.

What specific administration policies? Do your talking points include definitions?
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I would once again take the time to address your question had you not dismissed it out of hand before I even went to the trouble.....pound sand.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Difference is that the military is in the constitution, forcing me to waste billions of tax dollars in failed green energy plants where the greedy bundlers for Obama get their payback on is not.
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You are wrong, only defense is specified in the Constitution, and Iraq was not a military threat to the US.



I would once again take the time to address your question had you not dismissed it out of hand before I even went to the trouble.....pound sand.

j-mac
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I see, you still cannot provide us with single policy of Obama's that is killing jobs, and actually explain why it is killing jobs. No surprise. I didn't think you could.
 
Catawba said:
You are wrong, only defense is specified in the Constitution, and Iraq was not a military threat to the US.
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Thread derailment.

I see, you still cannot provide us with single policy of Obama's that is killing jobs, and actually explain why it is killing jobs. No surprise. I didn't think you could.
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:roll:


I guess a victory in your own mind is still a victory eh....:doh



j-mac
 
Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
If they cant afford gas, they can get on a bus. Or walk. Or ride a bike. I dont care. Saying people are living paycheck to paycheck is no reason to destroy the Earth. There is no direct line there.
Wow...This is a telling statement.
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Yea it sure is. How the poor or people living paycheck to paycheck is not the issue here. The issue is the environment and the future. What good is gas going to do for the poor or anyone else when there is no earth?

I am not sure the point of this part of your statement. But every gas station I have ever been to has had 3 different choices for gas at different prices.
Oh, so you think that is class pricing?
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I am responding to your random statement there buddy.

So you dont think the technology is worth investing in? Green energy is never going to be sustainable or proven unless you invest in it.
If it is worth it then it will be invested in by private investors...I don't need to be forced by government to invest in anything....BTW, show me where this is in the constitution that government can force me to invest in a Presidents pipe dream?
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That is certainly up for debate. Part of protecting our country is ensuring its existence. But lets go with your idea here for a moment or so. Are you of the belief that the government should never invest in anything unless everyone agrees with it?


Be clear. What is killing jobs?
Current administration policies.
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Going to try this part again......BE CLEAR What is killing jobs?
 
muciti said:
Yea it sure is. How the poor or people living paycheck to paycheck is not the issue here. The issue is the environment and the future. What good is gas going to do for the poor or anyone else when there is no earth?
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So those trying to better themselves, and their situation are of no concern when it comes to the green agenda, contrary to what liberals are constantly telling the lower middle, and poor. Here is the summary of what I think is about right when you say there will be no earth....



I am responding to your random statement there buddy.
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Ok friend.

That is certainly up for debate. Part of protecting our country is ensuring its existence.
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Did I miss something? Is there some proof that if Obama doesn't give billions to green ventures that the world will end in our lifetime?

But lets go with your idea here for a moment or so. Are you of the belief that the government should never invest in anything unless everyone agrees with it?
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I believe that Government should stick to governing via the Constitution and enumerated powers granted it, and leave venture deals to the market.

Going to try this part again......BE CLEAR What is killing jobs?
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I don't want to derail, so I'll give you one example that we all know of right now.....Keystone.


j-mac
 
Catawba said:
Go on all you want, you still haven't proven your claim of 100x demand of cheap oil. Recoverable oil, does not mean affordable oil, which is why prices have continued go up over the last two decades, and why the US military warned that we could see shortages of cheap oil as soon as 2015, with serious economic consequences!
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You dont givt a **** what I think.
 
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