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Thread: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    If it was 'just redistricting' and they are both 'very liberal democrats' that sort of defeats your whole argument doesnt it?
    Umm no? What do you think my argument is?

    I'm saying that the new congressional districts were deliberately drawn to force one of them out. It is not healthy for democracy if legislators choose their constituents rather than the other way around.

    If a computer randomly draws the districts, it would be objective and fair, within the context of the parameters it is given.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-08-12 at 11:28 AM.
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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm no? What do you think my argument is?

    I'm saying that the new congressional districts were deliberately drawn to force one of them out. It is not healthy for democracy if legislators choose their constituents rather than the other way around.

    If a computer randomly draws the districts, it would be objective and fair, within the context of the parameters it is given.
    Kucenich was not defeated by a republican...he was defeated by someone you describe as 'very liberal'. He was defeated in a primary by a fellow very liberal democrat. So unless the voting district continued a total moonbat crazy district that was then subdivided (and hey...maybe it was) the fact remains that regardless of the rezoning Kucenich was defeated by a very liberal democrat.

    Edit: Computer drawn districts would only be as effective as the parameters programmed into the software. You really think that would be better?

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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    The latest round of redistricting reduced one Republican seat and one Democratic seat.

    The only "fair" redistricting is letting chickens **** on a map. But I'm sure the two parties would argue over the consistency of the turd.
    Last edited by Samhain; 03-08-12 at 11:44 AM.

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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    I live in Ohio's 9th district and can tell you that any Republican usually has a snowball's chance in hell of winning the general election here. This district is a Democrat stronghold, even moreso now that Cleveland is also included the 9th district. However, if Kucinich decides to run as an independent (and he just might, knowing him) that could split the vote on the left and give Joe the Plumber a chance.
    The counties in between Lucas and Cuyahoga used to elect Republicans regularly. It's only adding in Toledo, and then west Cleveland, which makes it hopeless for Republicans.
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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Kucenich was not defeated by a republican...he was defeated by someone you describe as 'very liberal'. He was defeated in a primary by a fellow very liberal democrat. So unless the voting district continued a total moonbat crazy district that was then subdivided (and hey...maybe it was) the fact remains that regardless of the rezoning Kucenich was defeated by a very liberal democrat.
    Yes, that was the idea. Draw the new districts so that two Democrats are both in the same district, forcing them into a primary with each other, and get rid of one of them. This is a fairly routine tactic in gerrymandering for getting rid of an unwanted congressperson. Both parties employ it whenever they get the opportunity.

    Edit: Computer drawn districts would only be as effective as the parameters programmed into the software. You really think that would be better?
    Most definitely. There are some generally agreed upon parameters for avoiding gerrymandered districts (e.g. keep the districts approximately equally populated, keep them contiguous, keep them as square-shaped as possible). It's not perfect, and I'm sure that there are some possible parameters that could give one side or another a partisan advantage, but it's a lot better than allowing the legislators to draw the map themselves.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-08-12 at 11:50 AM.
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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    And in addition to those parameters I mentioned above, which are usually associated with unbiased and non-gerrymandered districts, the fairness of computer-drawn districts could be improved by agreeing to NOT use certain parameters which ARE typically associated with gerrymandering:

    1) Demographics of the district, including race, gender, age, religion, language, income, or sexual orientation.
    2) How urban or rural the area is (beyond the impact that this inherently has on population and keeping the districts square-shaped).
    3) Partisan or ideological affiliation of the area, past voting history of the area, or anticipated future voting habits of the area.
    4) The location of the residencies of any specific people...especially incumbent congresspeople or anticipated/declared candidates for Congress.

    It still wouldn't be perfect, but by creating a standard list of parameters to always be used by a computer program drawing the districts, and a standard list of parameters to explicitly NOT be used, we could certainly reduce the amount and extremeness of gerrymandering.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-08-12 at 12:16 PM.
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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    In the US, corporations are responsible for redrawing districts for their politicians. And Kucinich unfortunately didn't have any powerful corporate sponsors.

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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And in addition to those parameters I mentioned above, which are usually associated with unbiased and non-gerrymandered districts, the fairness of computer-drawn districts could be improved by agreeing to NOT use certain parameters which ARE typically associated with gerrymandering:

    1) Demographics of the district, including race, gender, age, religion, language, income, or sexual orientation.
    2) How urban or rural the area is (beyond the impact that this inherently has on population and keeping the districts square-shaped).
    3) Partisan or ideological affiliation of the area, past voting history of the area, or anticipated future voting history of the area.
    4) The location of the residencies of any specific people...especially incumbent congresspeople or anticipated/declared candidates for Congress.

    It still wouldn't be perfect, but by creating a standard list of parameters to always be used by a computer program drawing the districts, and a standard list of parameters to explicitly NOT be used, we could certainly reduce the amount and extremeness of gerrymandering.
    #1 is coming to a head.
    Race and redistricting: Unholy alliance starting to fray - The Washington Post
    As African-Americans overwhelmingly vote Democratic, Republicans want to cram the Democratic vote into as few House districts as possible. There are two ways to dilute that influence in the redistricting wars: “cracking,” or spreading black voters out across multiple House districts, and “packing,” or putting as many black voters as possible into the fewest number of districts.

    Cracking the minority vote can easily run afoul of the Voting Rights Act’s 1982 amendment, which mandates that minority voters be able to choose their representatives.

    Packing, on the other hand, gives black politicians a better chance at getting elected, while diluting black voters’ influence on other districts. While egregious packing can be challenged in court, it is harder to fight. In the ‘80s and ‘90s, Republicans developed an “unholy alliance” strategy to exploit this sytem.

    By packing Democrats into fewer and fewer House districts to protect a handful of black incumbents, Republicans are expanding their control over all 435 House seats by limiting Democratic influence to the smallest number of House seats possible.

    “The Voting Rights Act has become one of Democrats’ biggest roadblocks to taking back the House,” said redistricting expert Dave Wasserman of the Cook Political Report. “This pattern of heavily minority districts and increasingly-whitewashed surrounding districts means Democrats could win the total vote for House by several points and still fall more than a dozen seats short of 218.”

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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Kucenich was not defeated by a republican...he was defeated by someone you describe as 'very liberal'. He was defeated in a primary by a fellow very liberal democrat.
    Nope, he was defeated by a war-mongering neocon-friendly bimbo. . .

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    Re: Liberal Congressman Kucinich defeated in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, that was the idea. Draw the new districts so that two Democrats are both in the same district, forcing them into a primary with each other, and get rid of one of them. This is a fairly routine tactic in gerrymandering for getting rid of an unwanted congressperson. Both parties employ it whenever they get the opportunity.



    Most definitely. There are some generally agreed upon parameters for avoiding gerrymandered districts (e.g. keep the districts approximately equally populated, keep them contiguous, keep them as square-shaped as possible). It's not perfect, and I'm sure that there are some possible parameters that could give one side or another a partisan advantage, but it's a lot better than allowing the legislators to draw the map themselves.
    I dont know that there is ever a perfect system. ANY changes will cause some to shriek and scream and cry foul. Someone is ALWAYS impacted. Regardless...Kucenich was defeated by a very liberal candidate...hence we can only assume the DEMOCRATS that voted for her believe she is a better candidate. That, or Ohioans are now going to be represented by a democrat that is "
    lacking in integrity, filled with false truths." Compared to the spaceman...Im not sure that thats not an improvement.

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