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Thread: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Yes, if you read a bit futher, they did not take into account pension and medical benefits. The part you are quoting was only discussing hourly pay. I never said they were paid more, I said they were over compensated - which includes benefits - even benefits way beyond pension and healthcare.

    Now add just pension ad medical into the janitor's or IT guy's salary, and total compenastion is much higher. Include other benefits, and it's higher yet.

    The Times did not compare state health-care plans and pensions to the private sector. Such benefits are a major part of total state employee compensation — about 30 percent, on average — but are difficult to put present-day dollar values on and even harder to compare across different employers and job categories.

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Yes, if you read a bit futher, they did not take into account pension and medical benefits. The part you are quoting was only discussing hourly pay. I never said they were paid more, I said they were over compensated - which includes benefits - even benefits way beyond pension and healthcare.

    Now add just pension ad medical into the janitor's or IT guy's salary, and total compenastion is much higher. Include other benefits, and it's higher yet.
    As someone mentioned above, there are studies that come out both ways on this -- which suggests to me that the truth is probably in the middle, i.e. they are probably paid pretty fairly relative to the private sector.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    As someone mentioned above, there are studies that come out both ways on this -- which suggests to me that the truth is probably in the middle, i.e. they are probably paid pretty fairly relative to the private sector.
    I'm the "someone". Based on what i've seen of the studies, I tend to trust the ones showing they are over-compensated. I understand there are certainly people that will disagree with me. and some that will just want to split the difference.

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I'm the "someone". Based on what i've seen of the studies, I tend to trust the ones showing they are over-compensated. I understand there are certainly people that will disagree with me. and some that will just want to split the difference.
    Yeah, that's not too surprising given your self-identified lean.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yeah, that's not too surprising given your self-identified lean.
    Lean aside, I was able to make up my mind after reviewing all of the data. You jumped to the conclusion that the unions were really accepting the concessions without being too well informed on the topic. Simply taking the words of 2 leaders that their own rank and file called a public relations stunt.

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Lean aside, I was able to make up my mind after reviewing all of the data. You jumped to the conclusion that the unions were really accepting the concessions without being too well informed on the topic. Simply taking the words of 2 leaders that their own rank and file called a public relations stunt.
    Actually I've followed the Wisconsin battle from the very beginning, so I'm basing my opinion on a lot more than the few cites I posted. Not sure what that has to do with how union employees are payed relative to private employees, though.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Actually I've followed the Wisconsin battle from the very beginning, so I'm basing my opinion on a lot more than the few cites I posted. Not sure what that has to do with how union employees are payed relative to private employees, though.
    My overall point was that an undisclosed lean wasn't really fooling anyone. You made up your mind after only seeing part of the info that confirmed your opinion. You didn't seek out the rest of the story. And if you still beleive the offer was real despite what the rank and file and other big unions leaders were saying, that would pretty well solidify your lean even further.

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Yes, if you read a bit futher, they did not take into account pension and medical benefits. The part you are quoting was only discussing hourly pay. I never said they were paid more, I said they were over compensated - which includes benefits - even benefits way beyond pension and healthcare.

    Now add just pension ad medical into the janitor's or IT guy's salary, and total compenastion is much higher. Include other benefits, and it's higher yet.
    I did read it - and I'm sure YOU are much more qualified than the people doing the research on this subject - but just for grins lets highlight what they had to say, anyway.

    The Times did not compare state health-care plans and pensions to the private sector. Such benefits are a major part of total state employee compensation about 30 percent, on average but are difficult to put present-day dollar values on and even harder to compare across different employers and job categories.
    Your obvious assumption is a private sector IT Tech gets less than 8% of their pay in benefits and we both know that's pure crap.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Your obvious assumption is a private sector IT Tech gets less than 8% of their pay in benefits and we both know that's pure crap.
    Just 401K and health care? Probably not too far from that.

    As just a quick example:

    Workers in Private sector pay an average of 32.0% of family health care premium.
    Health care benefits: Share of premiums paid by employer and employee

    And in the public sector (and this is WI, I couldn't find data for Washington) employees pay about 5 percent of the premium - this is something I recall when the debate in WI was ongoing - if you really need proof, I can try to find it.

    I'm sure I could do a similar comparison of fully employer funded defined benefit pensions allowing early retirnements vs. employee funded 401Ks.
    Last edited by buck; 03-02-12 at 08:56 AM.

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    Re: Wisconsin governor won't challenge recall signatures

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Just 401K and health care? Probably not too far from that.

    As just a quick example:

    Workers in Private sector pay an average of 32.0% of family health care premium.
    Health care benefits: Share of premiums paid by employer and employee

    And in the public sector (and this is WI, I couldn't find data for Washington) employees pay about 5 percent of the premium - this is something I recall when the debate in WI was ongoing - if you really need proof, I can try to find it.

    I'm sure I could do a similar comparison of fully employer funded defined benefit pensions allowing early retirnements vs. employee funded 401Ks.
    You've already quoted and bolded the 30% in benefits for the public sector and now you want to preach about it, too? Fine - then let's take a closer look at those numbers.

    Assuming your private sector IT guy makes $36,000 then the public IT (22% less) makes $28,080. Add on 30% to that for benefits (28080*1.3) and we're at $36,504. Assuming the private sector guys has NO BENEFITS AT ALL then the public sector guy wins by a whopping $42 per month. You can't hardly buy a parking space for that kind of money. I've been through this before with other people who have no real clue about government pay or compensation.

    You want to know what government employees get that makes them government employees? (I won't bother to mention the public service aspect of it though it's a big part for many of them.) Public servants get job security, that's what they get - and generally less office politics than the private sector. Compared to the private sector the pay sucks and it always has. The ONLY time the government employees win is where we're at right now, during the hard times because their pay doesn't get reduced, though it's often frozen, and they're less likely to be laid off. THAT's your advantage to being a public servant and it's the only advantage.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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