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Thread: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    They you will agree that all felons, who have completed their sentence, should be allowed to vote.

    After all, it's what's happening today that counts. Correct?
    This deflection has nothing to do with the thread but yes, I believe those who have paid their debt to society should be allowed to vote.

    Back to the topic now?

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The Constitution served the American people well until judicial activism took hold and judges began reading things into the Constitution which weren't there.'When they began usurping State Rights then the gradual decline began.
    If that was what you thought, you would be applauding Obama for removing this federal program and removing the federal intrusion and letting the District of Columbia decide it's own business. Instead, you attacked him for doing so. So which is it? Get the Feds out or not? If it's get them out, then this should never have been Obama's responsibility in the first place. You can't attack the "usurping of State Rights" and be mad about the President ending this particular "usurpation." I suspect you're just looking for any avenue to attack him.


    Firstly you would need to support what you just claimed with an in-context quote. Secondly Rick Santorum does not speak for Republicans. He is a political candidate and holds no office at all.
    You said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    Admit it every time? I'm pointing it out frequently. The clueless and uneducated vote for Democrats and more responsible people vote for Republicans. The fact that this has to be pointed out to you yet again strongly indicates into which category you fall.
    If we assume that your hyper-partisan vitriol is accurate, you want to keep the "clueless and uneducated" from voting. If you are correct that they all vote for Democrats, then you want to stop Democrats from voting. At least your version of what a Democrat is. I can only assume that this is because then only the "more responsible" people would vote, which in your mind would give Republicans an advantage since the "more responsible" people invariably vote fro

    How does demonstrating that an individual has the legal right to vote constitute unfairness?
    It doesn't constitute unfairness. If you read what I said, I said that requiring ID does not constitute fairness. It does not make unfair system fair. In fact, it solves nothing at all. Since you seem to have a strong libertarian bent, I ask you why we need 50 state regulations that don't solve a problem that usually comes out to less than 1% of votes cast? To me, it seems like unnecessary governmental regulation of individuals.

    Are you one of those who will not only not protect your borders but not protect your electoral system as well? A lot of lives have been lost in vain if that is the case.
    That's a big assumption about me, that I ask you to back up with evidence. Since you have none, that's just dishonest.
    Last edited by rocket88; 03-05-12 at 10:21 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    If that was what you thought, you would be applauding Obama for removing this federal program and removing the federal intrusion and letting the District of Columbia decide it's own business. Instead, you attacked him for doing so. So which is it? Get the Feds out or not? If it's get them out, then this should never have been Obama's responsibility in the first place. You can't attack the "usurping of State Rights" and be mad about the President ending this particular "usurpation." I suspect you're just looking for any avenue to attack him.
    You see the inconsistency also?

    Yes, i believe the States should be running their education system in order that politicians like BHO cannot play these games on a national level. That is giving the Feds too much power.. The Feds have politicized education, as we can see, and that is to no ones benefit.

    You suspect I'm looking for another avenue to attach him? Are you his baby sitter or something?




    If we assume that your hyper-partisan vitriol is accurate, you want to keep the "clueless and uneducated" from voting.
    It's not clear whether you're being deliberately thick here or not but nowhere did i say that. Even when you use the quote you cannot understand what I said. I suppose I should have added that when you use a quote, you should respond to what is actually in the quote, and not what''s in your imagination. That can be your next challenge.

    If you are correct that they all vote for Democrats, then you want to stop Democrats from voting. At least your version of what a Democrat is. I can only assume that this is because then only the "more responsible" people would vote, which in your mind would give Republicans an advantage since the "more responsible" people invariably vote fro
    Your assumptions are of no interest to me, nor do I want to make assumptions about you or your own education.

    It doesn't constitute unfairness. If you read what I said, I said that requiring ID does not constitute fairness. It does not make unfair system fair. In fact, it solves nothing at all. Since you seem to have a strong libertarian bent, I ask you why we need 50 state regulations that don't solve a problem that usually comes out to less than 1% of votes cast? To me, it seems like unnecessary governmental regulation of individuals.
    They are not regulating individuals. If you can explain how having an ID to vote is regulating an individual please explain how that is being done. What they are trying to do is regulate the system in order that only those who are allowed to vote may vote. It is a system that is already regulated but obviously ineffectively. What they are trying to do is make the system in place more effective. What is wrong with that?


    That's a big assumption about me, that I ask you to back up with evidence. Since you have none, that's just dishonest.
    This is getting depressing. I asked a question, added an f", and made no assumptions. Re-read what was written and then respond if you choose.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    You see the inconsistency also?

    Yes, i believe the States should be running their education system in order that politicians like BHO cannot play these games on a national level. That is giving the Feds too much power.. The Feds have politicized education, as we can see, and that is to no ones benefit.

    You suspect I'm looking for another avenue to attach him? Are you his baby sitter or something?
    Yes, I see the inconsistency. I think it's very intellectually dishonest to say "Damn that Obama for wanting Federal control," and then "Damn that Obama for getting the Feds out of this program." He ended a Federal regulation. In principle, you should be agreeing with him. You can't have it both ways.

    Go ahead and attack him any way you want, but attacking him no matter what he does exposes quite a bit about you.






    It's not clear whether you're being deliberately thick here or not but nowhere did i say that. Even when you use the quote you cannot understand what I said. I suppose I should have added that when you use a quote, you should respond to what is actually in the quote, and not what''s in your imagination. That can be your next challenge.
    Then you need to make yourself clearer. You leave your meaning to the imagination of the reader, then get bitchy about "that's not what I said." So what did you say? You had said that Democrats are against this because they rely on ...well, we'll go back to your own words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    And we also know the reasons why Democrats are against any voter ID, but they cannot say it out loud.

    How can any Democrat admit they rely on the clueless and undereducated for their votes?
    So what do you mean? Democrats are against it because...they rely on stupid people? Stupid people have IDs too. So that couldn't be it. Against it because it makes it harder for them to rig the vote? Maybe, but I suspect that Republicans favor it because it'll make it easier for them to rig the vote rather than Democrats.

    Whenever one side says, "They've figured out how to game the system, here's a different system..." I automatically think that they just want to change the rules so that they can game the system. The Republicans care about fair elections as much as the Democrats do. It's fair and good if they win.

    If you follow baseball at all, you know that teams tailor their parks to their advantage -- how long is the grass, how wet is the dirt, how far are the walls, what are the ground rules about what's in play. In Houston, there's even a slight incline in front of the wall. Talk about not having a "level playing field." ID requirements are just the political equivalent of that. The Republicans feel like they've been playing in the Democrats' ballpark. Now they want to play a home game. That's understandable, but not "fair."


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Yes, I see the inconsistency. I think it's very intellectually dishonest to say "Damn that Obama for wanting Federal control," and then "Damn that Obama for getting the Feds out of this program." He ended a Federal regulation. In principle, you should be agreeing with him. You can't have it both ways.
    Again you are using quotes in a post directed at me but these quotes are not mine, nor do you say where they originated. And while doing so you accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Perhaps you're confusing education with indoctrination. We can call a Marxist economics professor "educated" but we can also question the value of that education when it applies to the reality of daily life. A professor specializing in quantum physics may not understand municipal budgets or other aspects of life that the most people deal with on a regular basis. They tend to do better in theory than reality. So do those on the bottom end of the scale who also have little contact with the middle class.



    I'm more interested in how we define "uneducated" and what that means in the larger sense.

    I'm among those who are not terribly impressed with the quality of the product the education system has been turning out and international grading systems support the idea that a great deal of money has been going to waste. At the same time political leaders like Barrack Obama, as well as most Democrats, want the power for the unions, not for genuine education where the student comes first.
    interesting twist on facts.

    So, how would you define education?
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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    interesting twist on facts.

    So, how would you define education?
    If i twisted the facts I'd like to know where. Perhaps I'm just looking at them from a different approach.

    There is more than one kind of education, many kinds in fact, and you would probably agree. We also tend to attach status and importance according to the direction our education has taken.

    Someone who graduated in Political Science, for instance, following four years of study might have more status than a person who studied the same length of time to become an electrician. Both are educated in different areas and consequently might be quite different in their approaches to life and their environment but both are certainly educated. Yet for some reason we attach more importance to the former than the latter.

    Right now education in colleges is directed more toward the white collar trades, if we can look at education where a livelihood in the field of study is expected, as a 'trade'. Or we invent patterns of behaviour, manners and mannerisms, that suggest sophistication, and thus education. Yet dig a little deeper, or remove these people from their environment, and we can see that these "educations" are often rather superficial.

    I live in a different environment t the moment in Central America and some of these people, by common definition, would be uneducated but of course in their environment they might be quite well educated. Natural ability also plays a part of course.

    Its a big subject and I only wanted look at education from a different perspective than one many might be used to.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If i twisted the facts I'd like to know where. Perhaps I'm just looking at them from a different approach.

    There is more than one kind of education, many kinds in fact, and you would probably agree. We also tend to attach status and importance according to the direction our education has taken.

    Someone who graduated in Political Science, for instance, following four years of study might have more status than a person who studied the same length of time to become an electrician. Both are educated in different areas and consequently might be quite different in their approaches to life and their environment but both are certainly educated. Yet for some reason we attach more importance to the former than the latter.

    Right now education in colleges is directed more toward the white collar trades, if we can look at education where a livelihood in the field of study is expected, as a 'trade'. Or we invent patterns of behaviour, manners and mannerisms, that suggest sophistication, and thus education. Yet dig a little deeper, or remove these people from their environment, and we can see that these "educations" are often rather superficial.

    I live in a different environment t the moment in Central America and some of these people, by common definition, would be uneducated but of course in their environment they might be quite well educated. Natural ability also plays a part of course.

    Its a big subject and I only wanted look at education from a different perspective than one many might be used to.

    OK, there are different ways to become educated. Not every educated person has spent a lot of time in school, and not everyone is educated in the same field. On that, we agree.

    When you say than uneducated people are more likely to vote for a particular party, that's where we part company. That sort of a statement implies that you think "educated" means someone who agrees with your point of view, and anyone else has been "indoctrinated" or is simply ignorant.

    Basic hallmarks of an educated person are:
    an in depth understanding of his/her native language, and the ability to understand at least one other.
    an ability to separate fact from fiction, and fact from opinion.
    an understanding of the basic workings of science
    a working knowledge of the history, literature, and institutions of his/her native culture.
    an ability to understand and get along with people who are different from himself culturally, racially, and/or religiously
    the ability to use mathematics to solve real world problems,


    Do you disagree with the above? have anything to add?

    and what would make people with those abilities more or less likely to belong to a particular political party?
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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    OK, there are different ways to become educated. Not every educated person has spent a lot of time in school, and not everyone is educated in the same field. On that, we agree.

    When you say than uneducated people are more likely to vote for a particular party, that's where we part company. That sort of a statement implies that you think "educated" means someone who agrees with your point of view, and anyone else has been "indoctrinated" or is simply ignorant.
    It doesn't mean that at all. You disagree with me but I don't doubt that you are well educated.

    Basic hallmarks of an educated person are:
    an in depth understanding of his/her native language, and the ability to understand at least one other.
    an ability to separate fact from fiction, and fact from opinion.
    an understanding of the basic workings of science
    a working knowledge of the history, literature, and institutions of his/her native culture.
    an ability to understand and get along with people who are different from himself culturally, racially, and/or religiously
    the ability to use mathematics to solve real world problems,


    Do you disagree with the above? have anything to add?
    I think that's not a bad definition in our culture.


    and what would make people with those abilities more or less likely to belong to a particular political party?
    Which party do you think this fellow is going to vote for?

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It doesn't mean that at all. You disagree with me but I don't doubt that you are well educated.



    I think that's not a bad definition in our culture.




    Which party do you think this fellow is going to vote for?
    Which party is any ignorant bigot more likely to vote for? I suppose that depends on where his bigotry has taken him.

    I think you would have a difficult time showing that people who lack the abilities I just listed would be more likely to vote for a Democrat than those who don't. Other than an extreme example or two, do you have some evidence that your supposition is correct?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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