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Thread: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's a fair criticism. Here's a specific study you can get started with: http://journalistsresource.org/wp-co...nd-Turnout.pdf
    Thank you.

    The short form is that voter ID laws reduce voter participation by about 1.6 - 2.2%. So, for example, if you use 2%, and take Georgia in '08, you find that participation was reduced by about 80,000 voters. That's one election. And the former Secretary of State could not think of a single example voter fraud relating to impersonation, which is what ID laws target. 80,000 can't vote to address a virtually nonexistent problem.
    O.K. I haven't read it all yet but let's start here. The arguement is that a photo I.D. reduces voting. I than have to ask. What makes getting your picture taken stops people from voting? You already have to register and get a card. How is it that people are not going to this because the person registering is asked to "smile and look into the camera"?

    Second, how do they know that 1.6 - 2.2% didn't vote because they were ineligable to actually vote?

    This is easily enough to change the results in a tightly contested election, given that those who are disenfranchised tend vote Democratic. And that is why Republicans are pushing these laws.
    Did people stop driving when we required them to "smile and look into the camera"?

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Of course. I just don't believe that obtaining a picture ID is any big deal. Compared to the struggle to get the right to vote to begin with, getting an ID is nothing. If the DMV were to offer free picture ID to non drivers, there would be no excuse not to have one. Few would need one in this car crazy culture of ours anyway.

    Illegals and the dearly departed would have a problem, but no one else.
    Sure, who doesn't know that DMV's are typically models of efficiency? For real?

    In any case, it has been PROVEN that voter ID laws reduce participation. Petending that they don't, or arguing that they *shouldn't* isn't much of an argument.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Yes they are. Some have written books, created art, rehabilitated and gone on to do wonderful things.
    Fine, those who are not recidivous scum, then by all means when they complete their debt to society and demonstrate that they are now not anti social predators, then restore their right.

    You also assume that convicts are all guilty and thus all should be denied the right to vote.
    The very definition of 'convicted' is to be deemed guilty by a panel of ones peers. And constitutionally in this country you then give up your right until you have paid your debt to society.

    They are not all guilty
    No system is perfect, but ours is the best.

    some are convicted of fairly petty crimes
    You either believe in the rule of law, or you don't....

    and I would rather give the all the right to vote.
    I don't believe that a murderer, pedophile, or rapist deserves any rights.

    I would think that christian believers would think the same because

    You shouldn't use things like the word of God that you hold no belief in. That is a hack move.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Thank you.



    O.K. I haven't read it all yet but let's start here. The arguement is that a photo I.D. reduces voting. I than have to ask. What makes getting your picture taken stops people from voting? You already have to register and get a card. How is it that people are not going to this because the person registering is asked to "smile and look into the camera"?

    Second, how do they know that 1.6 - 2.2% didn't vote because they were ineligable to actually vote?



    Did people stop driving when we required them to "smile and look into the camera"?
    Voting is a right, drivers licenses are a privilege. If you want to drive "smile and look into the camera", if you want to vote-- go vote. (Not all states require you to have a "card" to vote, you are just on the voter rolls and have to say I'm so and so and I live at 123 main street.)

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post

    You shouldn't use things like the word of God that you hold no belief in. That is a hack move.

    j-mac
    Who said I didn't believe things that are in the bible?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    It was such a violation of my rights to show my ID, birth cirtificate, and numerous personal documents to get my passport. It's such a violation of my rights to show my ID to buy PSE products. It's such a violation....

    Wait, no it isn't. Voter ID laws are good, and the ACLU is wrong on this one.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Voting is a right, drivers licenses are a privilege. If you want to drive "smile and look into the camera", if you want to vote-- go vote. (Not all states require you to have a "card" to vote, you are just on the voter rolls and have to say I'm so and so and I live at 123 main street.)

    Ok, please outline how voter ID would abridge the 15th amendment then.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Who said I didn't believe things that are in the bible?
    Lean: Socialist


    ...to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule.


    Lenin: Socialism and Religion
    Couldn't be more clear.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Thank you.

    O.K. I haven't read it all yet but let's start here. The arguement is that a photo I.D. reduces voting. I than have to ask. What makes getting your picture taken stops people from voting? You already have to register and get a card. How is it that people are not going to this because the person registering is asked to "smile and look into the camera"?

    Second, how do they know that 1.6 - 2.2% didn't vote because they were ineligable to actually vote?

    Did people stop driving when we required them to "smile and look into the camera"?
    Any time you place additional requirements on an actiivty you will reduce participation in that activity. Common sense should tell you that without having to look at a study.

    Basically I think you're looking at this issue in an ass-backwards fashion. You don't justify a regulation by first looking at how hard it is to meet. I mean, hell, why not require that anyone walking in public wear a baseball cap? It's pretty easy for anyone to get a baseball cap, right? What' the big deal?

    Rather, you start by looking at whether there is a proven need for the regulation at all. Then, IF there's a need for some kind of regulation, you look at whether the regulation that's suggested to address it is reasonable relative to the scope of the problem, or whether, perhaps, the regulation might do more harm than good.

    In the present case, there is next to no evidence that voter impersonation is a real problem in this country. It appears to be all but nonexistent. So the alleged harm that states are seeking to address -- elections that aren't fully representative -- seems to be made worse, rather than better, but imposing voter ID laws.

    To the extent that there is any real voter fraud it appears to occur almost exclusively as a result of manipulation by poll workers -- rather than as a result of voter impersonation. So if voter fraud is REALLY the issue, why aren't Republicans proposing all kinds of regulations to prevent improper manipulation of votes by poll workers? It makes one wonder if their real interest isn't voter suppression rather than voter fraud.

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    Re: ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Lean: Socialist




    Couldn't be more clear.


    j-mac
    J, you have got to be kidding me lol. First of all, Lenin doesn't represent all socialists. Secondly, yes, you can be socialist and believe certain things in the Bible. It's possible. Third, I thought all those liberation theologists were Marxists too?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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