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Thread: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

  1. #141
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    We can simply example cultures throughout history and across the world and it becomes obvious where rights have always come from: society. Take American slavery. At one point in time, blacks had no rights. They could be bought and sold or killed at a whim, they were property. Then people decided that they ought to have rights. We fought a war to free them. Over time, their rights gradually grew until they were fully as equal as everyone else. Today we take that for granted. Natural rights advocates would argue that blacks always had rights, they were simply being taken away, but that really makes no logical sense. That's like saying we have a right to flap our arms and fly, but gravity is just taking our right away. It's idiotic.

    I'm not asking for empirical evidence, I'm asking for objective evidence. There is a difference. See, libertarians are assuming without a shred of evidence or logical backing that natural rights exist, then building this entire house of cards, along with a massive range of rationalization, on top of that empty foundation. You need to go back and directly support that original assertion before you can build on it, otherwise when that one bad assertion fails, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.



    But the problem is, it's not any different. Libertarians have faith in natural rights, just as theists have faith in gods. Both are faulty foundations for the same reason, both cannot be justified rationally. Take away the bad assumptions and you're left with a disaster.
    You didn't answer my question. I asked you what gave a proposition merit.

    I appreciate and on some level agree with your "Rule by agreement" citation of Hobbes, but it has its holes as well. For instance, by what notion can we consider slavery bad? I assume you agree that it is, but if we are given rights by our peers who agree with us (society), then what is moral is what we decide, including genocide. While it makes logical sense, it puts you in a sort of moral conundrum.

    It seems that some level of faith is required, unless you wish to condemn humanity to a darwin based existence of survival of the fittest.

  2. #142
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Well, since we're pointing out each other's logical fallacies....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    We can simply example cultures throughout history and across the world and it becomes obvious where rights have always come from: society.
    Logical Fallacy - Invalid appeal to common knowledge: "everyone knows that so and so is true". Or, "it's obvious that this is the case".

    Actually, we can take a deep look at cultures all over the world and throughout history and arrive at a completely different conclusion. Nice try, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Take American slavery. At one point in time, blacks had no rights.
    Logical Fallacy - Lack of Proportion - When we overstate or overemphasize a point that is a crucial step in a piece of reasoning, then we are guilty of the fallacy of exaggeration.

    You should have said, "blacks had fewer rights."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They could be bought and sold or killed at a whim, they were property.
    Logical Fallacy - Lack of Proportion - When we overstate or overemphasize a point that is a crucial step in a piece of reasoning, then we are guilty of the fallacy of exaggeration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Then people decided that they ought to have rights.
    People decided? This is poorly worded, at best, and it assumes something you do not support with evidence - that rights are acquired.

    One could just as logically assert that certain people realized that slaves were human beings and entitled to certain rights. After a long war, the slave's shackles were removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    We fought a war to free them. Over time, their rights gradually grew until they were fully as equal as everyone else.
    Again, it could just as easily be asserted that it wasn't that their given rights grew, but that the oppression of their inherent rights shrunk. You've not logically supported your position.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Today we take that for granted.
    Another fallacy. I could make a case for this being a faulty generalization fallacy, or an appeal to emotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Natural rights advocates would argue that blacks always had rights, they were simply being taken away, but that really makes no logical sense.
    OK, here you've stated a premise... the position of natural rights advocates "makes no sense." It would be nice to see you support this with some evidence or a logical proof, but you fail to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's like saying we have a right to flap our arms and fly, but gravity is just taking our right away. It's idiotic.
    Logical Fallacy: Red Herring.... Judgmental language – insulting or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgment

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I'm not asking for empirical evidence, I'm asking for objective evidence. There is a difference. See, libertarians are assuming without a shred of evidence or logical backing that natural rights exist, then building this entire house of cards, along with a massive range of rationalization, on top of that empty foundation. You need to go back and directly support that original assertion before you can build on it, otherwise when that one bad assertion fails, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
    Pot, meet kettle. It's like you're describing your own style of posting perfectly. Go back and read some of your own posts next time before you rattle off on other forum members.
    Last edited by Peter Grimm; 02-27-12 at 12:19 PM.

  3. #143
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Oh come on, every time religion comes up, you make it an emotional case. Are you so blind that you can't see that?
    İ am brainy enough to see that is emotional.

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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Rights come from Jesus.... am I reading this right?

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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    .........What kind of cosmic bunny hole did your logic just jump through? Do you not understand this? I can't argue with you anymore. You are justifying rape and murder by placing the blame upon the victim. BTW I have some rocks if you would like to stone the rape victims as well. That is pretty popular in Iran as well.
    I'm not certain if they stone in Iran, but I don't expect you to know much of anything at this point.

    The man's execution is consensual...

    Just like if a pack of gang rapists sit in an alley and tell a woman that she can leave for the next 5 minutes after which she will be raped, and they all synchronise their watches and she sits and waits 5 minutes with a stop watch instead of just walking away, its consensual. Sorry. I can beat it into your brain. The guy has to recite a verse from the quran and hes done, scott free, they let him go home to his family. Get it straight.

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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    Rights come from Jesus.... am I reading this right?
    They come from God.

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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    I'm not certain if they stone in Iran, but I don't expect you to know much of anything at this point.

    The man's execution is consensual...

    Just like if a pack of gang rapists sit in an alley and tell a woman that she can leave for the next 5 minutes after which she will be raped, and they all synchronise their watches and she sits and waits 5 minutes with a stop watch instead of just walking away, its consensual. Sorry. I can beat it into your brain. The guy has to recite a verse from the quran and hes done, scott free, they let him go home to his family. Get it straight.
    Then it's not consensual.

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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    They come from God.
    And you realize that Iran is run by ayatollahs with the equivalent of 12+ PHDs in Islamic law?


    Might Makes right...
    I'm sure god strikes those that violate your rights with boltz of lightning?

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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    And you realize that Iran is run by ayatollahs with the equivalent of 12+ PHDs in Islamic law?
    Might Makes right...
    I'm sure god strikes those that violate your rights with boltz of lightning?
    Who is giving out those PHD's?

  10. #150
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    1500 years of islamic scholarship, did you make it out of highschool or are you a cardinal in the vatican if not, please don't try it.

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