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Thread: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

  1. #131
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    That is a cop out. You really don't think it is a basic human right? Never mind that it is an accepted right in EVERY civilized nation on Earth.
    Nice dodge. You make a claim, you can't back it up and you resort to a logical fallacy (argumentum ad populum).
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #132
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    When it comes to decisions like who I worship? Yep.
    How about worrying if what you believe is actually true instead.

    You get an Amen. I hate political theory (it isn't really philosophy), but certain things they are say ARE the basis of Western politics...and pretty "self evident" as it were. Like the idea "inallienable" human rights.
    Logical fallacy. Doesn't matter how many people accept an idea, that doesn't make the idea factually true.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #133
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post

    Logical fallacy. Doesn't matter how many people accept an idea, that doesn't make the idea factually true.
    Then what, pray tell, makes something factually true? What you just said could be applied to ANYTHING to denounce it as untrue. Which, while I'm no expert on "logical fallacies," seems pretty fallacious to me.

  4. #134
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post
    Then what, pray tell, makes something factually true? What you just said could be applied to ANYTHING to denounce it as untrue. Which, while I'm no expert on "logical fallacies," seems pretty fallacious to me.
    A proposition is true or untrue based entirely on it's own merits, not on how many people believe it or how emotionally satisfying it is. Lots of people once believed the Earth was flat. They were all wrong. The claim here is that these rights exist and are universal. They apply whether people want them to or not. A direct case has to be made for these propositions. Where do these rights come from? How do we determine what they are? How do we determine their reach? These things need to be backed up with evidence. Of course, when I ask for such evidence, all I get is a bunch of hand-waving nonsense because believers know they have nothing and are desperately trying to rationalize their faith. It's no different than religion, which acts the same way. They both make claims (natural rights/gods exist), both cannot produce any direct evidence for their claims, both resort to logical fallacies like argumentum ad populum (lots of people believe it) and the argument from authority (Rand/Locke/Hobbes said so/The Bible says so) and both shuck and jive when backed into a corner. Both are entirely emotional positions, they are demanded because people *WANT* them to be true, whether they are demonstrable or not and neither set of believers is intellectually honest enough to admit that their faith simply cannot be rationally justified.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #135
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    A proposition is true or untrue based entirely on it's own merits, not on how many people believe it or how emotionally satisfying it is. Lots of people once believed the Earth was flat. They were all wrong. The claim here is that these rights exist and are universal. They apply whether people want them to or not. A direct case has to be made for these propositions. Where do these rights come from? How do we determine what they are? How do we determine their reach? These things need to be backed up with evidence. Of course, when I ask for such evidence, all I get is a bunch of hand-waving nonsense because believers know they have nothing and are desperately trying to rationalize their faith. It's no different than religion, which acts the same way. They both make claims (natural rights/gods exist), both cannot produce any direct evidence for their claims, both resort to logical fallacies like argumentum ad populum (lots of people believe it) and the argument from authority (Rand/Locke/Hobbes said so/The Bible says so) and both shuck and jive when backed into a corner. Both are entirely emotional positions, they are demanded because people *WANT* them to be true, whether they are demonstrable or not and neither set of believers is intellectually honest enough to admit that their faith simply cannot be rationally justified.
    Okay, I see were getting philosophical here. How then, do we determine the merits of a proposition? The "world being flat" seems too simple of an answer, because it can be qualified as wrong easily. This is assuming of course that everyone has the same accepted definitions for flat and round, but the merits of these definitions can be questioned as well. Though I don't want to come off as "that philosophy guy" that argues semantics, and I'll say this: qualifying the rights of man cannot be done as easily as determining the shape of the earth, because a simple observation wont suffice. You ask for empirical evidence for a highly philosophical, and wide reaching proposition, and there indeed may be none, but where does that leave us? Are we just to become like animals? You denounce, yet provide no viable alternative. Therefore all we are left to do is to reach a consensus on philosophical matters.

    On religion, keep it separate from political ideals. There is no direct evidence for faith, hence it being called faith. It may seem illogical and wrong to you, but therein lies your choice to not associate.

  6. #136
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    set atheists aside,our topic is believers.
    you judge according to your precision about your belief ,and you think muhammed is not a fact and prophet ,and this is how iranians think and why they will sentence that man to death.my perception of you is like this..i dont like islamist regimes,either but its reason is not my belief in another religion.
    Medusa...it wouldn't matter if I believed in the flying spaghetti Monster or nothing at all. I care NOTHING about what religion is in charge of that nation. My problem is the people in charge of Iran. They are murdering innocent people for no reason. They hang gays, stone rape victims, hang people of different religions, and so on. Iran is a disgusting example of blatant violations of human rights.

    You are stuck on the fact that I am not Muslim and that I criticize them. You do NOT see me calling for the Death of Muslims. You do not see my calling on any Muslim nation that isn't violating human rights. You see me exclusively talking about how Iran is violating a most basic human right. My "judgement" has NOTHING...NOTHING AT ALL...to do with religion. Except that I believe of course everyone should be free to worship at their own choosing. It doesn't matter what the Iranians" believe. It is a blatant violation of human rights. You are Muslim correct? You don't support what they are doing. You don't like them for the same reason I don't like them. They are violating human rights.
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Medusa...it wouldn't matter if I believed in the flying spaghetti Monster or nothing at all. I care NOTHING about what religion is in charge of that nation. My problem is the people in charge of Iran. They are murdering innocent people for no reason. They hang gays, stone rape victims, hang people of different religions, and so on. Iran is a disgusting example of blatant violations of human rights.

    You are stuck on the fact that I am not Muslim and that I criticize them. You do NOT see me calling for the Death of Muslims. You do not see my calling on any Muslim nation that isn't violating human rights. You see me exclusively talking about how Iran is violating a most basic human right. My "judgement" has NOTHING...NOTHING AT ALL...to do with religion. Except that I believe of course everyone should be free to worship at their own choosing. It doesn't matter what the Iranians" believe. It is a blatant violation of human rights. You are Muslim correct? You don't support what they are doing. You don't like them for the same reason I don't like them. They are violating human rights.
    I agree with you,but if you say muhammed is not a historical fact during the discussion,maybe ,this makes me think this way about you,i am stuck on that statement ,anyway we agree that we must criticize them for acting against human rights.

  8. #138
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    A proposition is true or untrue based entirely on it's own merits, not on how many people believe it or how emotionally satisfying it is. Lots of people once believed the Earth was flat. They were all wrong. The claim here is that these rights exist and are universal. They apply whether people want them to or not. A direct case has to be made for these propositions. Where do these rights come from? How do we determine what they are? How do we determine their reach? These things need to be backed up with evidence. Of course, when I ask for such evidence, all I get is a bunch of hand-waving nonsense because believers know they have nothing and are desperately trying to rationalize their faith. It's no different than religion, which acts the same way. They both make claims (natural rights/gods exist), both cannot produce any direct evidence for their claims, both resort to logical fallacies like argumentum ad populum (lots of people believe it) and the argument from authority (Rand/Locke/Hobbes said so/The Bible says so) and both shuck and jive when backed into a corner. Both are entirely emotional positions, they are demanded because people *WANT* them to be true, whether they are demonstrable or not and neither set of believers is intellectually honest enough to admit that their faith simply cannot be rationally justified.
    cephus ,i never try to rationalize my belief and claim it is an emotional case but you still want evidence for god,sorry but there isnt such an evidence but we just refer to holy books and some other teachings to get an opinion about the creator.

  9. #139
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post
    Okay, I see were getting philosophical here. How then, do we determine the merits of a proposition? The "world being flat" seems too simple of an answer, because it can be qualified as wrong easily. This is assuming of course that everyone has the same accepted definitions for flat and round, but the merits of these definitions can be questioned as well. Though I don't want to come off as "that philosophy guy" that argues semantics, and I'll say this: qualifying the rights of man cannot be done as easily as determining the shape of the earth, because a simple observation wont suffice. You ask for empirical evidence for a highly philosophical, and wide reaching proposition, and there indeed may be none, but where does that leave us? Are we just to become like animals? You denounce, yet provide no viable alternative. Therefore all we are left to do is to reach a consensus on philosophical matters.
    We can simply example cultures throughout history and across the world and it becomes obvious where rights have always come from: society. Take American slavery. At one point in time, blacks had no rights. They could be bought and sold or killed at a whim, they were property. Then people decided that they ought to have rights. We fought a war to free them. Over time, their rights gradually grew until they were fully as equal as everyone else. Today we take that for granted. Natural rights advocates would argue that blacks always had rights, they were simply being taken away, but that really makes no logical sense. That's like saying we have a right to flap our arms and fly, but gravity is just taking our right away. It's idiotic.

    I'm not asking for empirical evidence, I'm asking for objective evidence. There is a difference. See, libertarians are assuming without a shred of evidence or logical backing that natural rights exist, then building this entire house of cards, along with a massive range of rationalization, on top of that empty foundation. You need to go back and directly support that original assertion before you can build on it, otherwise when that one bad assertion fails, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

    On religion, keep it separate from political ideals. There is no direct evidence for faith, hence it being called faith. It may seem illogical and wrong to you, but therein lies your choice to not associate.
    But the problem is, it's not any different. Libertarians have faith in natural rights, just as theists have faith in gods. Both are faulty foundations for the same reason, both cannot be justified rationally. Take away the bad assumptions and you're left with a disaster.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #140
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    cephus ,i never try to rationalize my belief and claim it is an emotional case but you still want evidence for god,sorry but there isnt such an evidence but we just refer to holy books and some other teachings to get an opinion about the creator.
    Oh come on, every time religion comes up, you make it an emotional case. Are you so blind that you can't see that?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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