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Thread: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

  1. #121
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The concept of right and wrong runs deeper than any government. Frankly, it runs deeper than any religion.
    Absolutely, it's based largely on enlightened self-interest. People want to be treated certain ways, thus they recognize that, being social creatures, they need to treat others the way they themselves want to be treated. That's where right and wrong come into the picture and ultimately, morals. However, different groups of people may have different views on what they want and therefore, the concept of right and wrong may vary from place to place, culture to culture and across time. Once you pile things like religion on top of basic human nature, you get some of the religious stupidity that we see in the Middle East. Doesn't significantly change anything though.

    The government of Iran is acting immorally in this case. The people of Iran, and the people of the world, can judge that for themselves in their hearts.
    In your opinion, I'm sure you think so. The people of Iran don't or the government wouldn't be doing it. Stop pretending that your opinions are superior to everyone else's, just because they're yours.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #122
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    At least...they are self empowering.
    Who says self-empowerment is automatically best in every case? The world needs leaders and followers.

    But are you not familiar with John Locke? The idea that everyone has some very basic rights that cannot be infringed upon? I mean if we are going to go by your logic that we are just as barbaric and bloodthirsty for not wanting to follow their law...well then we cannot coexist with Iran. In that case...bye bye Iran. Freedom of religion is not a barbaric concept.
    Yes I am and frankly, I'm not necessarily impressed with everything he says. A lot of his philosophy, and Hobbes, are just pie-in-the-sky nonsense that cannot be defended rationally. Rights come from society. If society says you have no rights, you have no rights. They are not some magical, mystical things that float around in the ether. Sure, we have the military might to go nuke Iran until it glows, we can do that if we really want to. That doesn't prove our ways are any better, objectively speaking, than theirs, just that we have the ability to impose our will on another people through force of arms.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #123
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Again. Freedom of religion is a most basic of human right.
    Says who? Back it up.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I hear that as long as a warning is given for the rape or murder...it is consensual.
    Well yes if they let you go and you decide to stay and get raped out of your own free will, yes. It becomes consensual.

  5. #125
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    That I'm not a cosmic fool? Thanks.
    That you don't understand the meaning of sacrifice.

  6. #126
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Who says self-empowerment is automatically best in every case? The world needs leaders and followers.
    .
    When it comes to decisions like who I worship? Yep.

    Yes I am and frankly, I'm not necessarily impressed with everything he says. A lot of his philosophy, and Hobbes, are just pie-in-the-sky nonsense that cannot be defended rationally.
    You get an Amen. I hate political theory (it isn't really philosophy), but certain things they are say ARE the basis of Western politics...and pretty "self evident" as it were. Like the idea "inallienable" human rights.

    Rights come from society.
    Thank you Thrasymachus.

    If society says you have no rights, you have no rights.
    I think it is more like: If society wants to violate your rights...they WILL violate your rights. It doesn't make it right or excusable to murder someone for being a non-believer. This isn't a unique philosophy to one country. Every civillized nation on Earth has these laws. Even China has a very basic form of Freedom of Religion (sort of).

    They are not some magical, mystical things that float around in the ether
    No they aren't. Freedom of religion, freedom from persecution, and generally life, liberty, and pursuit of happieness.

    doesn't prove our ways are any better,
    Sure it does. At least that is what you are justifying because that is EXACTLY what Iran is doing.

    Every nation should be held responsible for human rights. When a nation willfully violates human rights (in a legal sense)...then it is wrong. It is one thing for a criminal element to do something...it is another for there to be state sanctioned executions of people for renouncement of their faith.

    Honestly how can anyone defend Iran here? It is CLEARLY wrong.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  7. #127
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    Well yes if they let you go and you decide to stay and get raped out of your own free will, yes. It becomes consensual.
    .........What kind of cosmic bunny hole did your logic just jump through? Do you not understand this? I can't argue with you anymore. You are justifying rape and murder by placing the blame upon the victim. BTW I have some rocks if you would like to stone the rape victims as well. That is pretty popular in Iran as well.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  8. #128
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Says who? Back it up.
    That is a cop out. You really don't think it is a basic human right? Never mind that it is an accepted right in EVERY civilized nation on Earth.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Absolutely, it's based largely on enlightened self-interest. People want to be treated certain ways, thus they recognize that, being social creatures, they need to treat others the way they themselves want to be treated. That's where right and wrong come into the picture and ultimately, morals. However, different groups of people may have different views on what they want and therefore, the concept of right and wrong may vary from place to place, culture to culture and across time. Once you pile things like religion on top of basic human nature, you get some of the religious stupidity that we see in the Middle East. Doesn't significantly change anything though.
    The Golden Rule (which you have described) is the finest description of morality ever given.

    Luke 6:31 - "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." - Jesus

    I don't see how you can embrace it on the one hand, and decry religion on the other. Where do you think the idea originated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    In your opinion, I'm sure you think so. The people of Iran don't or the government wouldn't be doing it. Stop pretending that your opinions are superior to everyone else's, just because they're yours.
    Good people around the world will see this story for what it is; a story of a man unjustly executed for his religious beliefs, and a story of his courage in holding to those beliefs.

  10. #130
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    Re: Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I absolutely am 100% being objective on this. Do you see me pressing a gun to an atheist's head saying, "You better believe Jesus is the son of God or I'm gonna *****ing blow your head off!"

    NO. I would NEVER do that. I would NEVER EVER FORCE my belief in Jesus on them. That is not only a violation of the VERY FIRST Amendment of the Nation of which I reside and take VERY much pride in living, but it is also a fundamental violation of a VERY basic human right. ON TOP OF THAT: I think that is against my religion. I don't think it is AT ALL what Jesus wants me to do. I think he wants me to "Love thy neighbor."

    Do NOT support these wretched people. They are murdering this man because his religion is different. Don't try to compare me. I would NEVER do such a thing.

    Edit: Now that I have thought about it. I am not objective. I am not objective because I believe whole heartedly in the fundamental rights of human beings. And this is a clear violation of that right. So yes I am biased from a very Human, American, Lockeian, whatever perspective.

    Edit Edit: I might add that it has nothing to do with the fact that these monsters happen to be Muslims. It has to do with the fact they are Monsters.
    set atheists aside,our topic is believers.
    you judge according to your precision about your belief ,and you think muhammed is not a fact and prophet ,and this is how iranians think and why they will sentence that man to death.my perception of you is like this..i dont like islamist regimes,either but its reason is not my belief in another religion.

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