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Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Once again the offer to hand him over to a third nation was disingenuous which is proven conclusively by the fact that their demand was that we provide evidence of Bin Laden's guilt and that evidence had long been provided and they still refused to hand him over.



Because he was forced to flee Afghanistan.



The Taliban were co-conspirators in the 9-11 attacks I consider them as guilty as AQ which was part and parcel to the Taliban government and military.



We crushed the central leadership in Afghanistan and forced them to flee into the borderlands.




The NIST report stated that they would be emboldened to continue their Jihad elsewhere should the U.S. fail in Iraq but would cause the inverse should the opposite occur, and the U.S. succeeded in Iraq.

The Iraq conflict has become the “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves to have failed we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.

United States-led counterterrorism efforts have seriously damaged the leadership of al-Qa’ida and disrupted it’s operations.

We assess that the global jihadist movement is decentralized, lacks a coherent global strategy, and is becoming more diffuse.

I know, you hold that opinion, but you may well be wrong. With the right voice, carrot and stick, he may well have been given to a thrid party. Or we could have gone in on 9/12 and just gotten him and left. Again, the point is we did the mostexpensive and reckless option.

And him fleeing Afghanistan, forced or not, doesn't change anything I said. The fact is it took us nearly a decade, and our invasion did not accomplish the job. Nor does crushing the leadership in Afghanistan mean a thing at all.

I find part of what you quote as funny. A group that started out decenteralixed is now decentralized. Now that's progress. But let me ask, can you show meassurable decrease in terrorism?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Spare my feelings, please. You don''t recall a recent conversation we had where i was critical of the United States because they can't govern their borders or balance a budget?



LOL!!

You miss the point. It isn't you being critical, it is you overreacting to every hint at criticism.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

I know, you hold that opinion, but you may well be wrong.

It's not an opinion, it's a cold hard fact that the Taliban was provided with evidence of Bin Laden's guilt and they still refused to hand him over so the assertion that they offered to hand him over to a third country if given evidence of his guilty is fallacious.

With the right voice, carrot and stick, he may well have been given to a thrid party. Or we could have gone in on 9/12 and just gotten him and left. Again, the point is we did the mostexpensive and reckless option.

So do you admit that the assertion that the Taliban was willing to hand him over if we provided evidence of his guilt is false?

And him fleeing Afghanistan, forced or not, doesn't change anything I said. The fact is it took us nearly a decade, and our invasion did not accomplish the job. Nor does crushing the leadership in Afghanistan mean a thing at all.

Without the invasion of Afghanistan we would have never been able to kill him in Pakistan.

I find part of what you quote as funny. A group that started out decenteralixed is now decentralized.

AQ had a central leadership with command and control over their subsidiaries, that no longer exists.

Now that's progress. But let me ask, can you show meassurable decrease in terrorism?

There have been 0 terrorist attacks planned in, recruited in, trained in, and launched from Afghanistan since we ousted the Taliban.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

It's not an opinion, it's a cold hard fact that the Taliban was provided with evidence of Bin Laden's guilt and they still refused to hand him over so the assertion that they offered to hand him over to a third country if given evidence of his guilty is fallacious.



So do you admit that the assertion that the Taliban was willing to hand him over if we provided evidence of his guilt is false?



Without the invasion of Afghanistan we would have never been able to kill him in Pakistan.



AQ had a central leadership with command and control over their subsidiaries, that no longer exists.



There have been 0 terrorist attacks planned in, recruited in, trained in, and launched from Afghanistan since we ousted the Taliban.

You mistakenly overstate the strenght of our evidence and are still skipping around the point. Nor was it my claim that the taliban said they would turn him over with evidence. Does anyone read carefully? Seriously?

Nor is it true that we need to invade AND occupy aAfgahnistan to OBL. That simply isn't true. Remember, many state clearly Clinton could have done it in the past without invading.

And no, Al Qaeda has always been a organization that works without a head, they are by definition not centralized. It was reported OBL himself was surprised by 9/11. The recuritment and efforts have not only continued with our actions, but increased.

And you are wrong concerning Afghansitan, not that they need Afghanistan As none were lanuched from there before we invaded, but as we are there, and we are being killed, their goal is fully under way. Remember, OBL wanted us clser as it is easier to kill us there, and easier to bleed us, and easier to show us what he claimed. From a pragmatic POV, he got what he wanted. And he got it for a solid decade. better than he could have hoped for.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

You mistakenly overstate the strenght of our evidence

And now you are just lying. We provided courtroom testimony and captured satellite phone transmissions proving conclusively his guilt. This was enough to convince the ENTIRE UNSC!

and are still skipping around the point. Nor was it my claim that the taliban said they would turn him over with evidence. Does anyone read carefully? Seriously?

Your claim is that they were trying to negotiate, the actual negotiations which took place in real life were the Taliban saying that they would turn him over provided evidence of his guilt, that evidence had long been provided to them so it is a proven fact that they had no intention of handing him over.

Nor is it true that we need to invade AND occupy aAfgahnistan to OBL. That simply isn't true. Remember, many state clearly Clinton could have done it in the past without invading.

It took us ten years to track him down and kill him even with boots on the ground and the only reason why Clinton was able to "do it" is because the Sudanese government offered to hand him over, which is something that the Taliban refused to do. Regardless, even if we were able to track down OBL without human intelligence on the ground in the area this still would not have don anything to oust the terror training camps in Afghanistan.

And no, Al Qaeda has always been a organization that works without a head, they are by definition not centralized. It was reported OBL himself was surprised by 9/11.

lol, no he was not he was involved in the planning stages when KSM brought the adapted Bojinka plan to him.

The recuritment and efforts have not only continued with our actions, but increased.

AQ may be a franchise organization but prior to the war in Afghanistan they were still incorporated in Afghanistan and taking their ques and funding from their board of directors there.

And you are wrong concerning Afghansitan, not that they need Afghanistan As none were lanuched from there before we invaded, but as we are there, and we are being killed, their goal is fully under way. Remember, OBL wanted us clser as it is easier to kill us there, and easier to bleed us, and easier to show us what he claimed. From a pragmatic POV, he got what he wanted. And he got it for a solid decade. better than he could have hoped for.

Ya OBL misjudged our resolve and look at him now. ;)
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

You miss the point. It isn't you being critical, it is you overreacting to every hint at criticism.

Can't you just get on with the debates rather than offering up your goofy personal opinions? We're here for the debate, nothing more.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

It wouldn't have a made a bit of difference. 9/11 would have still happened. I believe they comment on this in 9/11 commission report. The point is, we choose war of other options.


Yeah, what were the other options? Being Islam's bitch?


j-mac
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Yeah, what were the other options? Being Islam's bitch?


j-mac

You are so silly j. You're the poster boy for Bush's either with us or against sound bite. You always only see two options. Have you ever heard of the either or fallacy? Might want to look that one up.

:coffeepap
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Can't you just get on with the debates rather than offering up your goofy personal opinions? We're here for the debate, nothing more.

Just memory. Were you around then? Did you follow any of it?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

You are so silly j. You're the poster boy for Bush's either with us or against sound bite. You always only see two options. Have you ever heard of the either or fallacy? Might want to look that one up.

:coffeepap


It's not about me....So you won't answer the question?


j-mac
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

It's not about me....So you won't answer the question?


j-mac

Again?

Sure. 9/12 gert OBL and go home.

That was one option.

Do as the 9/11 commission stated and allow agencies to talk to one another and not over react recklessly. Instead, quitely round up terrorist, try them, and put thema way.

That's two.

Stop at Afghanistan, allowing us to get our recklessness out of system, but focus only on our security and not nation building.

That's three.

How many will you remember? I only ask because I've only given them to you a thousand times before.

:coffeepap
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Again?

Sure. 9/12 gert OBL and go home.

That was one option.

Do as the 9/11 commission stated and allow agencies to talk to one another and not over react recklessly. Instead, quitely round up terrorist, try them, and put thema way.

That's two.

Stop at Afghanistan, allowing us to get our recklessness out of system, but focus only on our security and not nation building.

That's three.

How many will you remember? I only ask because I've only given them to you a thousand times before.

:coffeepap



You like the commission report right? Well, tell me how many recommendations Obama instituted from that?

Get Obama and go home? Well, hmmmmm....Seems the Taliban was protecting him now weren't they?


As far as our recklessness, did your hero pull out in 2009 and I missed it or something?


Now comes the excuses...Go!


j-mac
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

You like the commission report right? Well, tell me how many recommendations Obama instituted from that?

Get Obama and go home? Well, hmmmmm....Seems the Taliban was protecting him now weren't they?


As far as our recklessness, did your hero pull out in 2009 and I missed it or something?


Now comes the excuses...Go!


j-mac

Speaking of devsions. Obama didn't invade either Afghanistan or Iraq. I'm sorry, but any HONEST person knows there is adifference in taking a mess over and creating the mess.

But I'll take from your diversion you'll wait until you can pretend you never heard of alternatives before you bring them up again?

:coffeepap
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Speaking of devsions. Obama didn't invade either Afghanistan or Iraq. I'm sorry, but any HONEST person knows there is adifference in taking a mess over and creating the mess.

But I'll take from your diversion you'll wait until you can pretend you never heard of alternatives before you bring them up again?

:coffeepap

It seems to me that you should be considering what alternatives the Taleban and Saddam Hussein should have followed rather than just the Coalition. Can you think of any wiser choices they might have made?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

It seems to me that you should be considering what alternatives the Taleban and Saddam Hussein should have followed rather than just the Coalition. Can you think of any wiser choices they might have made?

Yes, I know. But self reflection is almost always better than looking outside. Peopel with strong self esteem do this.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Speaking of devsions. Obama didn't invade either Afghanistan or Iraq. I'm sorry, but any HONEST person knows there is adifference in taking a mess over and creating the mess.

But I'll take from your diversion you'll wait until you can pretend you never heard of alternatives before you bring them up again?

:coffeepap


Like I thought, the well worn 'it isn't his fault' excuse. I am disappointed Joe.


j-mac
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Like I thought, the well worn 'it isn't his fault' excuse. I am disappointed Joe.


j-mac

I guess this works better for you than acknowledging the truth of the statement. Like I said, too many on your side will do anything not to address a point.

:coffeepap
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

I guess this works better for you than acknowledging the truth of the statement. Like I said, too many on your side will do anything not to address a point.

:coffeepap

You haven't made a point, other than to make excuses for your failure of a President....I sure hope you libs aren't planning to run against Bush again this time....hint: it won't work twice.


j-mac
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

You haven't made a point, other than to make excuses for your failure of a President....I sure hope you libs aren't planning to run against Bush again this time....hint: it won't work twice.


j-mac

Nope. J, you have a habit of skipping the point. All too often you're so focused on your sterotypical mindset, you miss a lot. But I'll repeat it for you, highlight, and give you another chance:

Boo said:
Speaking of devsions. Obama didn't invade either Afghanistan or Iraq. I'm sorry, but any HONEST person knows there is a difference in taking a mess over and creating the mess.

But I'll take from your diversion you'll wait until you can pretend you never heard of alternatives before you bring them up again?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Nope. J, you have a habit of skipping the point. All too often you're so focused on your sterotypical mindset, you miss a lot. But I'll repeat it for you, highlight, and give you another chance:


This is an EXCUSE! What don't you get Joe? Bush is no longer in office. Obama has the reigns....And he has botched it, and instead of manning up, he, and YOU prefer to continue to blame Bush.

j-mac
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

This is an EXCUSE! What don't you get Joe? Bush is no longer in office. Obama has the reigns....And he has botched it, and instead of manning up, he, and YOU prefer to continue to blame Bush.

j-mac

No. You saying that is your excuse not to address it. Even the next president, say a republican, will nto be the one who started and created this mess. The BOTCHING was dpone long before Obama came in, and no one, democrat or republican can take that away. You can only criticize how well or poorly he dealt with the mess. But the mess, that was Bush's.

No honest way around that.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

No. You saying that is your excuse not to address it. Even the next president, say a republican, will nto be the one who started and created this mess. The BOTCHING was dpone long before Obama came in, and no one, democrat or republican can take that away. You can only criticize how well or poorly he dealt with the mess. But the mess, that was Bush's.

No honest way around that.


Then why did Obama double down?


j-mac
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Then why did Obama double down?


j-mac

First, doubling down is your skewed view of what happened. Not what was done. As he stated in the election, he sought to focus on Afghanistan. He did as he said he would, just in a way I would not have. And he keep his word and let the Iraqis set the time table for us leaving. He said that after Bush made the agreement.

You frankly have a skewed and inaccurate view.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

First, doubling down is your skewed view of what happened. Not what was done. As he stated in the election, he sought to focus on Afghanistan. He did as he said he would, just in a way I would not have. And he keep his word and let the Iraqis set the time table for us leaving. He said that after Bush made the agreement.

You frankly have a skewed and inaccurate view.


Nah, the skewing of anything is going on by administration, MSM shills like MSNBC, and supporters that are constantly twisting everything to make excuse for Obama's constant failure on every front.


Consider.

Double Down: Obama Blames Bush, Lectures Republicans, Demands Tax Increases - Guy Benson


j-mac
 
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