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Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

StillBallin75 said:
Look Connery, I like you and your posts are usually insightful, but you're going to have to do better than "this source is wrong because it's wrong."
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That is not my position at all. The manual is perfect for the audience it is directed to. The average poster is simply not a member of that audience and to hold them to the standard of "leaders and planners at the battalion level and above" is an inappropriate and a faulty application of that treatise.
 
StillBallin75 said:
See, the thing is it doesn't matter at all WHY we did this or not, or whether there was ill intent or not.. Unfortunately, what matters is perception. I don't disagree with anything you've posted here, but most of it is irrelevant.

These protesters may be crazy zealots, but calling them out for it doesn't change the fact that we are fighting a war in a country filled with such zealots with a tribal mentality. You can call them out for their irrationality all you want but the fact of the matter is calling them out for their irrationality doesn't change the fact that WE are trying to fight a war on THEIR soil, and we can't change their culture or way of thinking with a snap of the finger.

It is incumbent upon our forces to adapt their practices accordingly; because telling these people "oh, we're sorry, we didn't mean to offend, you're not being a true Muslim, now please get over it" doesn't help you win the war, even if it is valid criticism.
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A mistake was made plain and simple. This is not an intentional act directed at these people or their beliefs. Moreover, should they wish for us to respect their beliefs they should practice what they preach. The US has attempted to make amends, in response these people rioted and killed. No one is trying to change these people, their culture, their beleif system that much has been clear regarding this incident.
 
Its so awesome to see so many people tripping over themselves to respect the delicate sensitivities of religious people and supporting their ideologies. I'm sure that it is a consistent position...you know...respecting people of faith and their beliefs and ideologies...
 
StillBallin75 said:
See, the thing is it doesn't matter at all WHY we did this or not, or whether there was ill intent or not.. Unfortunately, what matters is perception. I don't disagree with anything you've posted here, but most of it is irrelevant.

These protesters may be crazy zealots, but calling them out for it doesn't change the fact that we are fighting a war in a country filled with such zealots with a tribal mentality. You can call them out for their irrationality all you want but the fact of the matter is calling them out for their irrationality doesn't change the fact that WE are trying to fight a war on THEIR soil, and we can't change their culture or way of thinking with a snap of the finger.

It is incumbent upon our forces to adapt their practices accordingly; because telling these people "oh, we're sorry, we didn't mean to offend, you're not being a true Muslim, now please get over it" doesn't help you win the war, even if it is valid criticism.
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Exactly. I'm not sure why people can't see that nearly everything is dependent on what your mission is. If the mission is to win hearts and minds, then the reason doesn't matter. The harm is done.
 
Wiggen said:
These people know nothing about democracy and don't care about it. Mostly they care about their particular tribe and making sure that they have more goats than the next guy. The lives lost in Afghanistan were wasted, just like the lives in Vietnam. Get them out now and to hell with the entire country. Let them eat their Korans for all I care.
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Shouldn't have invaded either country to begin with. It was hubris to think we can recreate people in our image.
 
Mya said:
I know.

What a bunch of lillies of the valley ..... almost make you want to puke :2sick1:
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This shows a huge misunderstanding of what is going on. This more picking a fight with your allies, and not fighting a war against you enemies.

Look, you have attitude. Kudos. But, you seem to have a mistaken idea of what is being discussed here, what the real issue is.
 
Boo Radley said:
Exactly. I'm not sure why people can't see that nearly everything is dependent on what your mission is. If the mission is to win hearts and minds, then the reason doesn't matter. The harm is done.
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This is an idealist approach to an actual situation. Ideally the Koran would not have been burned, but, it was. Ideally the US would have admitted it's mistake(which it did) and ideally these people would apply the principles of forgiveness espoused in the Koran* and accept that it was a mistake and not a means to injure them in any way. Winning hearts and minds is not a one way street the rules do not change according to circumstance.

*Those who avoid major sins and acts of indecencies and when they are angry they forgive. Qur'an ( 42:37)

Further, Al-Tawwab: This name means The Acceptor of repentance. This name of Allah is mentioned in the Quran about 11 times. Allah accepts the repentance of those who sincerely repent and turn to him for forgiveness. The word Tawwab gives the sense of oft-returning which means that Allah again and again accepts the repentance. We make sins and mistakes then we repent, He accepts our repentance. Then again we commit sins and make mistakes and when we repent, He again very kindly accepts us and gives us another chance. It is important to mention that we have to repent from our sins quickly and turn to God and ask for His forgiveness.
 
Connery said:
This is an idealist approach to an actual situation. Ideally the Koran would not have been burned, but, it was. Ideally the US would have admitted it's mistake(which it did) and ideally these people would apply the principles of forgiveness espoused in the Koran* and accept that it was a mistake and not a means to injure them in any way. Winning hearts and minds is not a one way street the rules do not change according to circumstance.

*Those who avoid major sins and acts of indecencies and when they are angry they forgive. Qur'an ( 42:37)

Further, Al-Tawwab: This name means The Acceptor of repentance. This name of Allah is mentioned in the Quran about 11 times. Allah accepts the repentance of those who sincerely repent and turn to him for forgiveness. The word Tawwab gives the sense of oft-returning which means that Allah again and again accepts the repentance. We make sins and mistakes then we repent, He accepts our repentance. Then again we commit sins and make mistakes and when we repent, He again very kindly accepts us and gives us another chance. It is important to mention that we have to repent from our sins quickly and turn to God and ask for His forgiveness.
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Nothing ideal about it. It is understanding your mission and making sure you account for all the important variables. No realistic, reasonable person would not have known this would cause a problem.
 
Higgins86 said:
not really, you have never been to a hostile region never met the local familes, kids, women trying to get on with their lifes and hoping that maybe you will be able to provide some stability to their lifes. The conflicts we are inviolved in today are not total war situations where you can just carpet bomb the problem away. The guys that sign up for this know what they are getting into and they are trained of this. Im feel sorry for you that you dont see the big picture and only see an enemy rather than people. I hope that one day you will be able to open your mind and see the people that are really affected by all this.
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You know Higgin's. You ARE absolutely right. You will get no argument from me. I make it a policy to try not to argue logic and the dictates of reason.

I must confess, that for years, I held to the same way of thinking. I don't think it was that long ago, actually, that I found myself formulating new thoughts. New feelings about it all.

If I had a mustard seed of hope that the approach you so elequently laid out before us would work, I would devote much time, thought and prayers to that end.

But I am convinced those people on that side of the planet are bat**** lunatic, what with their stupid ass religion and archaic cultures and beliefs. Now, I know that is a very broad statement and I take in account of those people who do not fit that mold. I am reminded of an old scripture saying something to the effect "If there are 7 rightous in the city..." or something like that.

I do not advise the burning of the Quran. I think it is in bad form and it shows lack up upbringing. But it ain't my bitch. Comprende?

I wish the Islamic people well. I wish we could just work our side of the street and let them work theirs, peacefully.

But I do not want to have anything to do with them. I would swear an oath that I would not go seek them for harm if they would just stay on their side of the world.

But, put us in the same arena, they are my enemy. Their ideologies, beliefs, and way of life, across-the-board, in general, stands firmly against what I know to be rightful and just. I want not a single cell of their cancer to infect our side of the planet. **** them and the camel they rode in on.

Their hate for us brings out my hate for them. And I hate hate.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I regret I have only on bladder to give for my country. Piss on all of them.
 
VanceMack said:
Its so awesome to see so many people tripping over themselves to respect the delicate sensitivities of religious people and supporting their ideologies. I'm sure that it is a consistent position...you know...respecting people of faith and their beliefs and ideologies...
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It has been for me :shrug:

But my position in this case is simply based on pragmatism and utility, not because i want to avoid offending people simply for the sake of not offending them. We are fighting a war on their soil. COIN strategy doesn't really work when you're pissing off the locals.
 
Boo Radley said:
Nothing ideal about it. It is understanding your mission and making sure you account for all the important variables. No realistic, reasonable person would not have known this would cause a problem.
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Your standard of perfection is impossible to meet each and every time.

Do you know the exact circumstances surrounding the inclusion of these books?
"It was unclear how many copies of the holy book, if any, were burned. Ahmad Zaki Zahid, the chairman of the provincial council in Parwan, where the base is located, said about 60 copies of the Quran were taken to the incinerator after being left behind by freed detainees, and about half were burned and half were retrieved." For people who claim this is a desecration they themselves discarded these books and treated those books with more disrespect than anyone else.

U.S. Marine Corps Gen. John R. Allen's statement was unusually rapid and strikingly contrite. Addressing to the "noble people of Afghanistan" in a video that was aired on national television, Allen said he had been given a report overnight indicating that Western military personnel at Bagram had "improperly disposed of a large number of Islamic religious materials" including Qurans.

"When we learned of these actions, we immediately intervened and stopped them," the general said, adding that the recovered materials would be turned over to religious authorities. He thanked the local people who had brought the matter to light.

"We are thoroughly investigating the incident and we are taking steps to ensure this does not ever happen again," Allen said. "This was not intentional in any way."
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Military officials call Quran burning by U.S. troops a mix-up, apologize to Afghans - Wire - Lifestyle - bellinghamherald.com

People are human, it was a mistake. The mission of the Islam protesters is to forgive according to the book that was burned, the Koran. For those who fail in that there will be no winning of any hearts or any minds under any circumstances.
 
Connery said:
A mistake was made plain and simple. This is not an intentional act directed at these people or their beliefs. Moreover, should they wish for us to respect their beliefs they should practice what they preach. The US has attempted to make amends, in response these people rioted and killed. No one is trying to change these people, their culture, their beleif system that much has been clear regarding this incident.
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While all this is true, it is also irrelevant, which was my original point. There's little we can do to change or affect the reality described above.
 
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Connery said:
That is not my position at all. The manual is perfect for the audience it is directed to. The average poster is simply not a member of that audience and to hold them to the standard of "leaders and planners at the battalion level and above" is an inappropriate and a faulty application of that treatise.
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ah okay, my mistake for misunderstanding you.
 
Connery said:
Your standard of perfection is impossible to meet each and every time.

Do you know the exact circumstances surrounding the inclusion of these books?



Military officials call Quran burning by U.S. troops a mix-up, apologize to Afghans - Wire - Lifestyle - bellinghamherald.com

People are human, it was a mistake. The mission of the Islam protesters is to forgive according to the book that was burned, the Koran. For those who fail in that there will be no winning of any hearts or any minds under any circumstances.
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I quite disagree, but whether all mistakes can be avoided or not is irrelevant. It is still a mistake and likely to be costly.
 
Boo Radley said:
I quite disagree, but whether all mistakes can be avoided or not is irrelevant. It is still a mistake and likely to be costly.
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All parties are at fault: the detainees who negligently left the Koran behind, those who burned it, those who have acted like animals killing and rioting and the commanders in charge of the burning. There is nothing that would appease those who rioted. There is nothing that would win the protesters over, even perfection.

This situation merely ignited a tinderbox of hatred that had already been existent.
 
Connery said:
All parties are at fault: the detainees who negligently left the Koran behind, those who burned it, those who have acted like animals killing and rioting and the commanders in charge of the burning. There is nothing that would appease those who rioted. There is nothing that would win the protesters over, even perfection.

This situation merely ignited a tinderbox of hatred that had already been existent.
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If someone moves out of an apartment and leaves their garbage behind I don't think the landlord is obligated to go through it and filter out what goes to the dump and what does not. It's one thing to stand on a soapbox and pour lighter fluid on the Quran and then light it with a Bic lighter and a totally different thing to throw out a bunch of crap out that had a bunch of Qurans stashed inside.

But either way, it's just another excuse these asshats in turbans can use for getting their loincloths in a bundle. Weakminded ****tards.
 
Captain America said:
If someone moves out of an apartment and leaves their garbage behind I don't think the landlord is obligated to go through it and filter out what goes to the dump and what does not. It's one thing to stand on a soapbox and pour lighter fluid on the Quran and then light it with a Bic lighter and a totally different thing to throw out a bunch of crap out that had a bunch of Qurans stashed inside.

But either way, it's just another excuse these asshats in turbans can use for getting their loincloths in a bundle. Weakminded ****tards.
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Unfortunately in this world of diplomatic relations the US has to take responsibility. The US made the amends which fit the situation. "Reports by witnesses at the burning and religious leaders who met with NATO officials at the Bagram Air Base where the incident occurred suggested that some copies had been pulled from the flames before they were badly damaged." The protesters made too much of this, now there are needless deaths and unrest.
 
Connery said:
Unfortunately in this world of diplomatic relations the US has to take responsibility. The US made the amends which fit the situation. "Reports by witnesses at the burning and religious leaders who met with NATO officials at the Bagram Air Base where the incident occurred suggested that some copies had been pulled from the flames before they were badly damaged." The protesters made too much of this, now there are needless deaths and unrest.
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The whole thing looks like a Chinese **** story to me. It's all stupid anyway you look at it.
 
Big mistake for the United States, however, an even bigger mistake by the citizenry who have killed each other over this.
 
Connery said:
All parties are at fault: the detainees who negligently left the Koran behind, those who burned it, those who have acted like animals killing and rioting and the commanders in charge of the burning. There is nothing that would appease those who rioted. There is nothing that would win the protesters over, even perfection.

This situation merely ignited a tinderbox of hatred that had already been existent.
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That may well be true. But you don't withhold criticism, or speak to the importance of not doing something just because others are also at fault. And of those at fault, only the soldiers are us. So, self assessment means more than assessing the others at this moment.

We have to deal with the actions, true, but we also have to make our people understand this was a mistake and take steps to assure it doesn't happen again.
 
Boo Radley said:
That may well be true. But you don't withhold criticism, or speak to the importance of not doing something just because others are also at fault. And of those at fault, only the soldiers are us. So, self assessment means more than assessing the others at this moment.

We have to deal with the actions, true, but we also have to make our people understand this was a mistake and take steps to assure it doesn't happen again.
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You are absolving the people who left the Koran behind. That in itself is a desecration of the Koran. You are absolving the protesters, people who were under no compulsion to act like animals and as a result deaths occurred. The US military has already admitted fault, made their amends and is in the process of seeing that this does not happen again.
 
Connery said:
You are absolving the people who left the Koran behind. That in itself is a desecration of the Koran. You are absolving the protesters, people who were under no compulsion to act like animals and as a result deaths occurred. The US military has already admitted fault, made their amends and is in the process of seeing that this does not happen again.
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No, I'm not. I'm saying that in assessment, we start with our actions. All of this will be part of the equation, but that accepting all of that as true, doesn't negate the fact that it was a mistake. It should not have been done because of what our mission is. The reason anyone should every consider offending someone is when doing so hinders the mission, our goal, purpose. I think this gets lost in the discussion.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Friggin Muslims need to grow the **** up. Seriously!
 
Boo Radley said:
No, I'm not. I'm saying that in assessment, we start with our actions. All of this will be part of the equation, but that accepting all of that as true, doesn't negate the fact that it was a mistake. It should not have been done because of what our mission is.
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The mistake has been admitted to that had been established the moment the US became aware of the situation. More, measures are being taken to prevent other such mistakes.

The reason anyone should every consider offending someone is when doing so hinders the mission, our goal, purpose. I think this gets lost in the discussion.
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The mistake was clearly unintentional. No one purposely set out to offend any Islam, Military leader or common person; to suggest as much is to inject contrivances in facts presented.
 
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