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Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

Mya said:
No Higgins86; I have not been to war, but you can bet your sweet eye that I would not be politically correct in war.

Does that answer your question?
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Good luck, the upper level brass really try to go way beyond the politically correct. To a fault even.

I will give a quick example.

We knew that a mosque was holding weapons and people we were looking for. We were not allowed to move on it because that would violate the religious rights of the people inside. That was the short version, but you get the idea.
 
Higgins86 said:
not really, you have never been to a hostile region never met the local familes, kids, women trying to get on with their lifes and hoping that maybe you will be able to provide some stability to their lifes. The conflicts we are inviolved in today are not total war situations where you can just carpet bomb the problem away. The guys that sign up for this know what they are getting into and they are trained of this. Im feel sorry for you that you dont see the big picture and only see an enemy rather than people. I hope that one day you will be able to open your mind and see the people that are really affected by all this.
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If I go to war and I am told to win and wipe out the enemy .... that's what I do is that so hard to understand?
 
Blue_State said:
Good luck, the upper level brass really try to go way beyond the politically correct. To a fault even.

I will give a quick example.

We knew that a mosque was holding weapons and people we were looking for. We were not allowed to move on it because that would violate the religious rights of the people inside. That was the short version, but you get the idea.
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I know.

What a bunch of lillies of the valley ..... almost make you want to puke :2sick1:
 
Mya said:
If I go to war and I am told to win and wipe out the enemy .... that's what I do is that so hard to understand?
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yes is is because I served in the British army and I never had an order to "win" ( its not an xbox game) obviously the fragile nature of these regions is lost on you and the suble nature of modern warfare is as well. But since you seem to be so brave why not sign up?
 
Mya said:
If I go to war and I am told to win and wipe out the enemy .... that's what I do is that so hard to understand?
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When it comes to fighting counterinsurgency, the primary goal is to "win the hearts and minds of the people." The existence of the enemy is incidental.

Now we can argue about the efficacy of counterinsurgency in general and debate the merits of restrictive ROE in particular, but there's more to the wars we are currently fighting than simply eliminating the enemy. Victory in war is not determined by body count.
 
StillBallin75 said:
When it comes to fighting counterinsurgency, the primary goal is to "win the hearts and minds of the people." The existence of the enemy is incidental.

Now we can argue about the efficacy of counterinsurgency in general and debate the merits of restrictive ROE in particular, but there's more to the wars we are currently fighting than simply eliminating the enemy. Victory in war is not determined by body count.
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hearts and minds?

candy too? :lamo

ok I give up ..... hey this is the internet .... LOL not real life!


It's ok too LOL
 
Mya said:
hearts and minds?

candy too? :lamo

ok I give up ..... hey this is the internet .... LOL not real life!


It's ok too LOL
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you should give up because your embarrassing yourself. Im off to bed you should probably watch the last Rambo film and come back in the morning with some real debate...;)
 
Higgins86 said:
you should give up because your embarrassing yourself. Im off to bed you should probably watch the last Rambo film and come back in the morning with some real debate...;)
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good night sleep tight :lamo
 
Higgins86 said:
its not about being politically correct its about knowing your surroundings. When I was deployed to Iraq we spent hours in the classroom learning about the people of southern Iraq, their cultures and beliefs. What your talking about is total war which is not relevant in Afgahn. The soldiers that go their are fighting the taliban and al qaeda and are supposed to be setting a legacy of western democracy that will last after we are gone and will hopefully stop history repeating itself. The russians bombed the crap out of the afghan people and not only lost the war but started a decade of military regime under the taliban, to simply just bomb the locals as your suggesting not onlt spits on the memory of the solderis that died in Afghan it also shows that you (mya) learned nothing from that attacks of 9/11 and alsmost welcome such attacks again.
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These people know nothing about democracy and don't care about it. Mostly they care about their particular tribe and making sure that they have more goats than the next guy. The lives lost in Afghanistan were wasted, just like the lives in Vietnam. Get them out now and to hell with the entire country. Let them eat their Korans for all I care.
 
Higgins86 said:
have to ask but have you been to war?

p.s war is not always total obliteration, you seem to be a little naive.
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I have been to war. Afghanistan is very like the war I fought in. Useless allies, just as likely to shoot at you as the enemy, and a country frankly not worth one American life.
 
Wiggen said:
These people know nothing about democracy and don't care about it. Mostly they care about their particular tribe and making sure that they have more goats than the next guy. The lives lost in Afghanistan were wasted, just like the lives in Vietnam. Get them out now and to hell with the entire country. Let them eat their Korans for all I care.
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I agree with that!;):mrgreen:
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Higgins86 said:
pissing on the dead taliban was stupid but I understand why they did that ( dont condone it) but burning the Koran isjust asking for trouble. You their to protect the people not stir the hornets nest, the Koran is the most important thing in the world to any Muslim so to burn it is just asking for trouble.
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StillBallin75 said:
Well to be fair I don't think they burned the Koran just to spite people...did they? FWIW we have burned Bibles as well...that's how the US military handles everything it regards as waste/garbage that it doesn't need to use anymore. Burn or bury it. Burn poop. Burn Korans. Not saying they shoulda done it, but i don't think they did it just to piss people off.
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Higgins86 said:
its a mistake at this point they should not be making, mistake or not it should not be happening and that mistake will endanger western forces.
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StillBallin75 said:
Agreed, I'm all for being knowledgeable and sensitive to the culture of the country one's army is occupying.
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Manc Skipper said:
Does free speech include starting a fire in a theatre?
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Hare said:
I think the fact that the act was performed by a foreign army made it much more reprehensible, not sure if it was intentional or not I've heard conflicting reports, at this point I don't think the citizens care if it was intentional or not, they just need a target for their aggression.
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Higgins86 said:
agreed but soldiers are also professionals and are trained to adapt to any situation. This current war requires a basic understanding of the local people and their beliefs and who ever burned the Korans ( mistake or not) failed to do his job.
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OK check this out:
The Korans were part of a fairly large pile of stuff which was taken off of prisoners over the coarse of months. Finaly the time came to clean out the ConEx all this stuff was in.

Local Nationals are used for such labor jobs, to include handling garbage.

Local Nationals disposed of all that stuff, including the Korans. It's very likely they didn't realize their holy book was among the items.

Trash is disposed of in burn pits. When the Local Nationals disposed of the ConEx of 'junk', they naturally took it all to the burn pit, because that's where they take all the trash from all over the base. Nothing unusual here.

Other Local National workers on a regular garbage rout were dumping a load when they noticed burning pages of the Koran in the burn pit where the 'junk' from that ConEx was disposed of by other Local Nationals.

Oops, **** happens.

US soldiers did not take Korans and burn them. This was an accident thru a garbage detail manned by the very people who are protesting. No one's at fault, there is no criminal intent to incite a riot, it was an accident.
 
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Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Wiggen said:
How about a demonstration thanking us for saving them from Osama Bin Laden and the Taleban?

Oh wait, they are the Taleban.

Never mind.
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neither osama nor taleban represent islam.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Honestly I can't feel sorry for them. They burn the Bible which is sacred to Christians. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you".
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

The koran burnt in a Florida church was an accident too I guess.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Here, why don't you educate yourself instead of laughing off other people's arguments Mya:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf
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As stated in the manual: "The primary audience for this manual is leaders and planners at the battalion level and above." This is good fodder for those who wish to imagine themselves experts on regarding this situation, but, it is a far cry from any reality especially that on a forum.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Jerry said:
Other Local National workers on a regular garbage rout were dumping a load when they noticed burning pages of the Koran in the burn pit where the 'junk' from that ConEx was disposed of by other Local Nationals.

Oops, **** happens.

US soldiers did not take Korans and burn them. This was an accident thru a garbage detail manned by the very people who are protesting. No one's at fault, there is no criminal intent to incite a riot, it was an accident.
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Okay, I could easily see this happening. This makes sense.
 
"It was not a decision that was made because they were religious materials," Allen said. "It was not a decision that was made with respect to the faith of Islam. It was a mistake. It was an error. The moment we found out about it, we immediately stopped and we intervened."....U.S. Gen. John Allen, the top commander of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan, said the books had been mistakenly given to troops to be burned at a garbage pit at Bagram, north of Kabul."

Quran-burning an accident, U.S. tells Afghanistan | Detroit Free Press

This was not the way to react to the situation, no matter how much the Koran means to these people. For a religion of peace this is despicable.

"Demonstrations turned violent on Wednesday morning in the capital and in Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan where one person was killed and at least six injured, according to government officials. Protesters attempting to break into the NATO base at the Jalalabad airfield set fire to six fuel tankers in a nearby parking lot. In Kabul, protesters threw rocks at Afghan Army vehicles and shouted anti-American slogans as they blocked the main road to eastern Afghanistan."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/w...ghanistan-prompts-second-day-of-protests.html


Therein lies the desensitization to just what the Koran may mean those who claim to practice Islam, the actions of some followers are filled with contradictions, mayhem, death, inhumane treatment of others within their faith this is all very confusing. It is my understanding that the Koran itself preaches forgiveness of mistakes and this situation clearly falls under that category.
 
It was a mistake. It's gonna have consequences, no doubt, probably really bad ones. Especially following the incident with the marines pissing on Afghan corpses. But it's still just a dumb mistake.
 
Connery said:
As stated in the manual: "The primary audience for this manual is leaders and planners at the battalion level and above." This is good fodder for those who wish to imagine themselves experts on regarding this situation, but, it is a far cry from any reality especially that on a forum.
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Look Connery, I like you and your posts are usually insightful, but you're going to have to do better than "this source is wrong because it's wrong."
 
Connery said:
"It was not a decision that was made because they were religious materials," Allen said. "It was not a decision that was made with respect to the faith of Islam. It was a mistake. It was an error. The moment we found out about it, we immediately stopped and we intervened."....U.S. Gen. John Allen, the top commander of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan, said the books had been mistakenly given to troops to be burned at a garbage pit at Bagram, north of Kabul."

Quran-burning an accident, U.S. tells Afghanistan | Detroit Free Press

This was not the way to react to the situation, no matter how much the Koran means to these people. For a religion of peace this is despicable.

"Demonstrations turned violent on Wednesday morning in the capital and in Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan where one person was killed and at least six injured, according to government officials. Protesters attempting to break into the NATO base at the Jalalabad airfield set fire to six fuel tankers in a nearby parking lot. In Kabul, protesters threw rocks at Afghan Army vehicles and shouted anti-American slogans as they blocked the main road to eastern Afghanistan."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/w...ghanistan-prompts-second-day-of-protests.html


Therein lies the desensitization to just what the Koran may mean those who claim to practice Islam, the actions of some followers are filled with contradictions, mayhem, death, inhumane treatment of others within their faith this is all very confusing. It is my understanding that the Koran itself preaches forgiveness of mistakes and this situation clearly falls under that category.
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See, the thing is it doesn't matter at all WHY we did this or not, or whether there was ill intent or not.. Unfortunately, what matters is perception. I don't disagree with anything you've posted here, but most of it is irrelevant.

These protesters may be crazy zealots, but calling them out for it doesn't change the fact that we are fighting a war in a country filled with such zealots with a tribal mentality. You can call them out for their irrationality all you want but the fact of the matter is calling them out for their irrationality doesn't change the fact that WE are trying to fight a war on THEIR soil, and we can't change their culture or way of thinking with a snap of the finger.

It is incumbent upon our forces to adapt their practices accordingly; because telling these people "oh, we're sorry, we didn't mean to offend, you're not being a true Muslim, now please get over it" doesn't help you win the war, even if it is valid criticism.
 
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