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Thread: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormageddon View Post
    There was no "one before the bombings," they had only offered to try him themselves, and the evidence for Bin Laden's culpability in the murder of U.S. citizens had in fact been presented in detail to the Taliban (and the entire world) for the Tanzania, Nairobi, and U.S.S. Cole Bombings and they refused to extradite him, so we do in fact know that the Taliban were playing games.
    That will be America's fault also.

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormageddon View Post
    There was no "one before the bombings," they had only offered to try him themselves, and the evidence for Bin Laden's culpability in the murder of U.S. citizens had in fact been presented in detail to the Taliban (and the entire world) for the Tanzania, Nairobi, and U.S.S. Cole Bombings and they refused to extradite him, so we do in fact know that the Taliban were playing games.
    Over three years and on as many continents, U.S. officials met in public and secret at least 20 times with Taliban representatives to discuss ways the regime could bring suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden to justice.

    Talks continued until just days before the Sept. 11 attacks, and Taliban representatives repeatedly suggested they would hand over bin Laden if their conditions were met, sources close to the discussions said.

    (snip)

    Some Afghan experts argue that throughout the negotiations, the United States never recognized the Taliban need for aabroh, the Pashtu word for "face-saving formula." Officials never found a way to ease the Taliban's fear of embarrassment if it turned over a fellow Muslim to an "infidel" Western power.

    "We were not serious about the whole thing, not only this administration but the previous one," said Richard Hrair Dekmejian, an expert in Islamic fundamentalism and author at the University of Southern California. "We did not engage these people creatively. There were missed opportunities."

    Diplomats Met With Taliban on Bin Laden (washingtonpost.com)


    You cannot fix a problem or get what you want if you don't understand it. Audience and purpose have to match. Bottom line, how did the war thingie work out? Do you really believe we could not have done better?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That will be America's fault also.

    That poor nation esteem you have must be hard to live with.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Over three years and on as many continents, U.S. officials met in public and secret at least 20 times with Taliban representatives to discuss ways the regime could bring suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden to justice.

    Talks continued until just days before the Sept. 11 attacks, and Taliban representatives repeatedly suggested they would hand over bin Laden if their conditions were met, sources close to the discussions said.

    The Taliban did not offer to hand over Bin Laden (at least not to the United States) before the bombing started, you're going to have to do better than unnamed sources, because the Taliban made their disingenuous "3rd country" offer in public to the press 8 days after the bombing had already started. Furthermore; if grand jury indictments (evidence that convinced the UNSC and included courtroom testimony and captured satellite phone transmissions) were not enough to convince the Taliban then nothing would, it is CLEAR that they had absolutely no intent whatsoever to hand over Bin Laden.


    (snip)

    Some Afghan experts argue that throughout the negotiations, the United States never recognized the Taliban need for aabroh, the Pashtu word for "face-saving formula." Officials never found a way to ease the Taliban's fear of embarrassment if it turned over a fellow Muslim to an "infidel" Western power.

    "We were not serious about the whole thing, not only this administration but the previous one," said Richard Hrair Dekmejian, an expert in Islamic fundamentalism and author at the University of Southern California. "We did not engage these people creatively. There were missed opportunities."

    Diplomats Met With Taliban on Bin Laden (washingtonpost.com)


    You cannot fix a problem or get what you want if you don't understand it. Audience and purpose have to match.
    lol O.K. so now you've gone from the argument that had the U.S. provided evidence against Bin Laden to the Taliban they would have handed him over, to now the Taliban didn't hand him over because they were embarrassed? And your expert Richard Hrair Dekmejian claims that the U.S. was the party "not being serious"???

    Bottom line, how did the war thingie work out? Do you really believe we could not have done better?
    Bin Laden is dead, the Taliban is out of power, and Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for AQ. The conditions demanded by the Taliban had already been met 3 years before the 9-11 attacks had even occurred, so the assertions that they were trying to hand Bin Laden over to anyone (let alone the U.S.) are laughable.
    Last edited by Stormageddon; 03-09-12 at 01:21 PM.

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Incorrect. The Afghan government offered to hand over OBL BEFORE 911, if evidence was supplied of his wrongdoing. The US refused to recognise them.
    You do realize, I hope, that the Taliban leader Mullah Omar is married to one of OBL's daughters? Do you really believe he would hand his father-in-law over to the Great Satan?
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That poor nation esteem you have must be hard to live with.

    Which poor nation are you referring to?

    You're not making sense again.

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Which poor nation are you referring to?

    You're not making sense again.
    You feel the US is picked on and everyone hates us. I suggest, just like people with poor self esteem, you are seeking this because you feeling concerning this country are so low that you can't handle any criticism or open discussion. Hence, poor nation esteem.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormageddon View Post
    The Taliban did not offer to hand over Bin Laden (at least not to the United States) before the bombing started, you're going to have to do better than unnamed sources, because the Taliban made their disingenuous "3rd country" offer in public to the press 8 days after the bombing had already started. Furthermore; if grand jury indictments (evidence that convinced the UNSC and included courtroom testimony and captured satellite phone transmissions) were not enough to convince the Taliban then nothing would, it is CLEAR that they had absolutely no intent whatsoever to hand over Bin Laden.




    lol O.K. so now you've gone from the argument that had the U.S. provided evidence against Bin Laden to the Taliban they would have handed him over, to now the Taliban didn't hand him over because they were embarrassed? And your expert Richard Hrair Dekmejian claims that the U.S. was the party "not being serious"???



    Bin Laden is dead, the Taliban is out of power, and Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for AQ. The conditions demanded by the Taliban had already been met 3 years before the 9-11 attacks had even occurred, so the assertions that they were trying to hand Bin Laden over to anyone (let alone the U.S.) are laughable.
    I did not claim they offered to hand him over to the US before the bombing. Nor did I argue we had to provide them with evidence. I said there was room for negotiation, that turning him to someone neutral, not us, was an option not taken, and that when the bombing started, they tried to negotiate, but we weren't open. Instead, we wanted to nation build, the most costly way to do this.

    OBL was killed in Pakistan, not Afghanistan, nearly a decade down the road. The Taliban is and was no threat to us, and Afghanistan, like Pakistan, still harbors our enemies, and in fact we help provide excellent training, just as we did in Iraq. I seem to recall a CIA report saying those trained in Iraq will be killing folks for decades to come. But, we can into that later.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You feel the US is picked on and everyone hates us.
    Spare my feelings, please. You don''t recall a recent conversation we had where i was critical of the United States because they can't govern their borders or balance a budget?

    I suggest, just like people with poor self esteem, you are seeking this because you feeling concerning this country are so low that you can't handle any criticism or open discussion. Hence, poor nation esteem.
    LOL!!

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    Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I did not claim they offered to hand him over to the US before the bombing. Nor did I argue we had to provide them with evidence. I said there was room for negotiation, that turning him to someone neutral, not us, was an option not taken, and that when the bombing started, they tried to negotiate, but we weren't open. Instead, we wanted to nation build, the most costly way to do this.
    Once again the offer to hand him over to a third nation was disingenuous which is proven conclusively by the fact that their demand was that we provide evidence of Bin Laden's guilt and that evidence had long been provided and they still refused to hand him over.

    OBL was killed in Pakistan, not Afghanistan,
    Because he was forced to flee Afghanistan.

    nearly a decade down the road. The Taliban is and was no threat to us,
    The Taliban were co-conspirators in the 9-11 attacks I consider them as guilty as AQ which was part and parcel to the Taliban government and military.

    and Afghanistan, like Pakistan, still harbors our enemies,
    We crushed the central leadership in Afghanistan and forced them to flee into the borderlands.


    and in fact we help provide excellent training, just as we did in Iraq. I seem to recall a CIA report saying those trained in Iraq will be killing folks for decades to come. But, we can into that later.
    The NIST report stated that they would be emboldened to continue their Jihad elsewhere should the U.S. fail in Iraq but would cause the inverse should the opposite occur, and the U.S. succeeded in Iraq.

    The Iraq conflict has become the “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves to have failed we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

    We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.

    United States-led counterterrorism efforts have seriously damaged the leadership of al-Qa’ida and disrupted it’s operations.

    We assess that the global jihadist movement is decentralized, lacks a coherent global strategy, and is becoming more diffuse.
    Last edited by Stormageddon; 03-09-12 at 09:57 PM.

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