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Thread: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I don't have a crystal ball, sorry. That would have me imagine a world where the US is not the sole military super-power. Historically, those with the strongest military have pretty much ruled the world. Like it or not, that is the fate of the United States at this point in history and there is no escaping that role. I honestly can't imagine the US ever saying "we're out, sort your damn selves out." So, I would say whichever country would hold that position if the US had not risen to the top would be filling your shoes.
    But the United States is no longer the strongest power and their enemies know that. Certainly they have the most weapons and the largest armies but they are weak as a nation.

    They went to a phony war with Libya and the big deal was that nobody got hurt! What army can possibly go to battle with that as their main objective? It's a parody.

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    But using that strategy suggests that we are the aggressors and we control the future, when that is not the case at all. You are simply giving the initiative to them and. like Afghanistan and the Middle East now, they will take it.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. No one controls the future, not the aggressors, nor the ones being attacked. The only ones who control the future are the winners of history. We don't know who's going to win this fight yet. We're still right in the middle of it.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    But the United States is no longer the strongest power and their enemies know that. Certainly they have the most weapons and the largest armies but they are weak as a nation.

    They went to a phony war with Libya and the big deal was that nobody got hurt! What army can possibly go to battle with that as their main objective? It's a parody.
    I disagree. They still are the strongest military power. If a world war breaks out, they still stand the best chance of victory, with or without their allies. As for Lybia, that wasn't really a war. It was merely providing assistance to the Lybian rebels on the ground.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    You can't bomb them into the 21st century. No matter what you do, their culture will win out. Someone said that culture is fate. It really is. There's no escaping it. Bombing their government buildings, as you suggest, will have no effect whatsoever. They won't magically start respecting women's rights or stop executing gays.
    Their advantage is a strong belief system accompanied by a strong social structure, an apparent willingness to carry out any inhumane and bloodthirsty crime against innocents anywhere, and to protest at any slight real or perceived. This is already frightening us into appeasement.

    Our advantage is advanced weaponry and we are failing to use it. We do not have a fall back system.

    Maybe bombing their leadership on a grander scale won't work, but the drones seemed to have some value for a while. I'd say its worth a try.
    Some of those countries have powerful allies. I prefer a strategy that makes a potential world war least likely.
    The US has, or had, powerful Allies also. Why are they more powerful than us?

    A world war would be extremely unlikely if we seriously set out to win it.

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I disagree. They still are the strongest military power. If a world war breaks out, they still stand the best chance of victory, with or without their allies. As for Lybia, that wasn't really a war. It was merely providing assistance to the Lybian rebels on the ground.
    The Americans lost in Iraq, Egypt, Libya, and will shortly lose the entire Middle East, though much depeds on Israel. They have lost in Afghanistan.

    They cannot win wars and don't even plan to. Instead they want people to like them, with this hearts and minds craziness being their most obvious craziness.

    By the way, these "Libyan rebels", like the Egyptian rebels" are really going to bite our asses.

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. No one controls the future, not the aggressors, nor the ones being attacked. The only ones who control the future are the winners of history. We don't know who's going to win this fight yet. We're still right in the middle of it.
    I agree that we don't know who is going to win this fight but we certainly should.

    if you feel we can't win it. despite all our modernity, why not?

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    Their advantage is a strong belief system accompanied by a strong social structure, an apparent willingness to carry out any inhumane and bloodthirsty crime against innocents anywhere, and to protest at any slight real or perceived. This is already frightening us into appeasement.

    Our advantage is advanced weaponry and we are failing to use it. We do not have a fall back system.

    Maybe bombing their leadership on a grander scale won't work, but the drones seemed to have some value for a while. I'd say its worth a try.


    The US has, or had, powerful Allies also. Why are they more powerful than us?

    A world war would be extremely unlikely if we seriously set out to win it.
    I don't think we're frightened into appeasement. I think we're torn on what is the best way to fight this war. Many still cling to Western ideals on the rules of war. We're still fighting this by following our own principles and values. Which worked really well when we were fighting enemies with a similar worldview. This new enemy does not share these values and we're left wondering whether to become as barbaric as they are, or to continue upholding our principles regardless. Personally, I don't think we should descend to their level, but I do understand that more and more people think we should.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The Americans lost in Iraq, Egypt, Libya, and will shortly lose the entire Middle East, though much depeds on Israel. They have lost in Afghanistan.

    They cannot win wars and don't even plan to. Instead they want people to like them, with this hearts and minds craziness being their most obvious craziness.

    By the way, these "Libyan rebels", like the Egyptian rebels" are really going to bite our asses.
    It's the price of trying to be civilized in a region of barbarians. I'm not sure it would have been any better had they decided to bomb that part of the world into oblivion. Given the two choices, maybe the right one was made after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I agree that we don't know who is going to win this fight but we certainly should.

    if you feel we can't win it. despite all our modernity, why not?
    I honestly don't know. What are we trying to win this time exactly? Are we trying to eradicate terrorism? If that's what we're doing, I believe it can't be done. If the goal is revenge for 9/11, I'd say mission accomplished. If the goal is spreading democracy, war is not the way to do it.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I don't think we're frightened into appeasement.
    That's certainly my take though. The media is refusing to publish, or are minimizing, anything that might reflect badly on Muslims while the attacks on the US and their policies continues. there is no perspective.

    I think we're torn on what is the best way to fight this war.
    Yes, i think so and that makes us particularly vulnerable. With Hitlers and Mussolinis there was only one way to fight them, though of course many preferred appeasement to war then as now. But war was a more straightforward proposition and the media pretty much supported their country. Now its quite different.
    Many still cling to Western ideals on the rules of war. We're still fighting this by following our own principles and values. Which worked really well when we were fighting enemies with a similar worldview. This new enemy does not share these values and we're left wondering whether to become as barbaric as they are, or to continue upholding our principles regardless. Personally, I don't think we should descend to their level, but I do understand that more and more people think we should.
    I honestly don't believe we could descend to their level, at least on any large scale. The idea of sawing a persons head off and posting the results on the internet, much to the delight of many Islamic viewers, is as abhorrent to us as anything can possibly be. And the history of this ugliness goes back a few decades, right to the Munich massacre. Our biggest scandal was probably Abu Ghraib, where nobody died at all, but the apologies went on for months. I never hear any apologies whatsoever for beheadings, honour killings, shooting women through the head, etc. Nunca. They, unlike us, would probably find such apologies find demeaning, or there would be fears that they should stop..
    Last edited by Grant; 03-04-12 at 02:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    When this happens again, and the policies of Barrack Obama have insured that it will, then a bomb of sufficient magnitude should be released on the government headquarters of wherever the source of the attack might be. Thus if Iran gets out of line, bomb the government buildings in Tehran.

    Continue this program until there is a strong change in attitude concerning any American and Anti Western sentiments. That will win their hearts and minds much more quickly than BHO's apology tours.
    You can't be that naive can you?

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