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Thread: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

  1. #261
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Here's the facts of the matter. Regardless of how you feel over burning a Koran, in the US or Afghanistan, the Afghanis are going to get pretty damn upset about it and it, as seen, will result in American Soldiers being killed. Therefore you're opinion on Koran burning is entirely irrelevant to the situation, you can be entirely against it, or entirely for it, to the Afghanis the ones who potentially will kill US Soldiers your opinion does not matter. So lets stop pretending that anyone's opinion on Koran burning does matter, what matters if the Afghan's opinions on it and what they will do if it occurs.

    Put your pride aside, its irrelevant, unnecessary, and frankly if decisions were made off what would and wouldn't defend your pride it would get people killed. Is your pride so valuable?
    I understand your reasoning completely and must reluctantly admit that you're absolutely right. In the context of Afghanistan, it really doesn't matter how many times we dissect the merits of Western-style freedom of speech and expression. The sad fact remains that to Afghans the concept is utterly meaningless. They have, still are and will continue to kill over what we consider one of the most basic rights. That's the unquestionable reality. Military leaders make decisions over there every day based on this reality.

    As for your question on whether or not our pride is so valuable, I don't think it's a question of pride so much as a question of basic principles and core values. Even though we know how some cultures will react to certain book burnings, intentional or not, we should not forget our principles and what we see as basic rights. Whenever we witness these rights being completely torn to shreds by another culture, we have an obligation to forcefully stand up for what we believe in. So, even though I basically agree with you that it will not change anything in places like Afghanistan, even though I understand the need Obama felt to apologize for a mistake, I don't think the average person should silence their outrage. It most certainly will not save any soldiers' lives and may in fact put them in even more danger, but no one ever said freedom came at no cost.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    When this happens again, and the policies of Barrack Obama have insured that it will, then a bomb of sufficient magnitude should be released on the government headquarters of wherever the source of the attack might be. Thus if Iran gets out of line, bomb the government buildings in Tehran.

    Continue this program until there is a strong change in attitude concerning any American and Anti Western sentiments. That will win their hearts and minds much more quickly than BHO's apology tours.
    Honestly, Grant, I really don't think anything will ever win their hearts and minds at this point. Not apologies and most certainly not repeated and systematic bombings. You'd only be adding to the endless list of grievances that region holds against the West and possibly escalating the conflict to WWIII proportions. I'm not sure there is any solution other than to let history take its course.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Honestly, Grant, I really don't think anything will ever win their hearts and minds at this point. Not apologies and most certainly not repeated and systematic bombings. You'd only be adding to the endless list of grievances that region holds against the West and possibly escalating the conflict to WWIII proportions. I'm not sure there is any solution other than to let history take its course.


    What course would you see taking place should we just throw our hands up in the air, and give up on the region?

    j-mac
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What course would you see taking place should we just throw our hands up in the air, and give up on the region?

    j-mac
    Exactly the same. Like I said, nothing will change anything at this point. I have nothing against intervening in the region when it's necessary and justified, but we have to know that we're not making the world any safer by doing so. Not that the world ever was a safe place, but you know what I mean.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What course would you see taking place should we just throw our hands up in the air, and give up on the region?

    j-mac

    We should give up any aspirations that we could turn these extraordinarily primitive people into a functioning democracy based upon humanist principles. These are a severely inbred people where marrying close family members is the norm, and where loyalties follow blood ties rather than political or philosophical.

    There is simply no way to win the hearts and minds of those whose sense of loyalty is formed by blood.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Exactly the same. Like I said, nothing will change anything at this point. I have nothing against intervening in the region when it's necessary and justified, but we have to know that we're not making the world any safer by doing so. Not that the world ever was a safe place, but you know what I mean.

    No, the world is not a very safe place, and WE play a role in protecting what safety exists, or at least I'd like to believe so. Can you imagine a world where the US said 'hey, not our problem'? Who do you think would fill that void, and would we be safer, or less safe today?


    j-mac
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    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No, the world is not a very safe place, and WE play a role in protecting what safety exists, or at least I'd like to believe so. Can you imagine a world where the US said 'hey, not our problem'? Who do you think would fill that void, and would we be safer, or less safe today?


    j-mac
    I don't have a crystal ball, sorry. That would have me imagine a world where the US is not the sole military super-power. Historically, those with the strongest military have pretty much ruled the world. Like it or not, that is the fate of the United States at this point in history and there is no escaping that role. I honestly can't imagine the US ever saying "we're out, sort your damn selves out." So, I would say whichever country would hold that position if the US had not risen to the top would be filling your shoes.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Honestly, Grant, I really don't think anything will ever win their hearts and minds at this point. Not apologies and most certainly not repeated and systematic bombings. You'd only be adding to the endless list of grievances that region holds against the West and possibly escalating the conflict to WWIII proportions. I'm not sure there is any solution other than to let history take its course.
    I'm not the least bit interested in their hearts and minds at all, Arcana. All that interests me is that they cut down on their violence against Gays, Women, people of other faiths and, generally, those living in the west. Appealing to their intellectual side, or that there is a light bulb that will suddenly come on in their fanatical little minds, is a laughable response,

    How can there be WW!! proportions when the aggressors are one step away from their caves? The only thing that gives them sustenance and confidence is our weak kneed lack of a serious response.

    At least they are smart enough to see how weak we are while we're still conning ourselves that we're strong.

    Good to see you!

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Exactly the same. Like I said, nothing will change anything at this point. I have nothing against intervening in the region when it's necessary and justified, but we have to know that we're rategy, if it is one, is to allow thme to continue with theirnot making the world any safer by doing so. Not that the world ever was a safe place, but you know what I mean.
    But using that strategy suggests that we are the aggressors and we control the future, when that is not the case at all. You are simply giving the initiative to them and. like Afghanistan and the Middle East now, they will take it.

  10. #270
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I'm not the least bit interested in their hearts and minds at all, Arcana. All that interests me is that they cut down on their violence against Gays, Women, people of other faiths and, generally, those living in the west. Appealing to their intellectual side, or that there is a light bulb that will suddenly come on in their fanatical little minds, is a laughable response,
    You can't bomb them into the 21st century. No matter what you do, their culture will win out. Someone said that culture is fate. It really is. There's no escaping it. Bombing their government buildings, as you suggest, will have no effect whatsoever. They won't magically start respecting women's rights or stop executing gays.

    How can there be WW!! proportions when the aggressors are one step away from their caves? The only thing that gives them sustenance and confidence is our weak kneed lack of a serious response.
    Some of those countries have powerful allies. I prefer a strategy that makes a potential world war least likely.

    Good to see you!
    You too.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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