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Thread: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

  1. #111
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Its so awesome to see so many people tripping over themselves to respect the delicate sensitivities of religious people and supporting their ideologies. I'm sure that it is a consistent position...you know...respecting people of faith and their beliefs and ideologies...
    It has been for me

    But my position in this case is simply based on pragmatism and utility, not because i want to avoid offending people simply for the sake of not offending them. We are fighting a war on their soil. COIN strategy doesn't really work when you're pissing off the locals.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  2. #112
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Nothing ideal about it. It is understanding your mission and making sure you account for all the important variables. No realistic, reasonable person would not have known this would cause a problem.

    Your standard of perfection is impossible to meet each and every time.

    Do you know the exact circumstances surrounding the inclusion of these books?
    "It was unclear how many copies of the holy book, if any, were burned. Ahmad Zaki Zahid, the chairman of the provincial council in Parwan, where the base is located, said about 60 copies of the Quran were taken to the incinerator after being left behind by freed detainees, and about half were burned and half were retrieved." For people who claim this is a desecration they themselves discarded these books and treated those books with more disrespect than anyone else.

    U.S. Marine Corps Gen. John R. Allen's statement was unusually rapid and strikingly contrite. Addressing to the "noble people of Afghanistan" in a video that was aired on national television, Allen said he had been given a report overnight indicating that Western military personnel at Bagram had "improperly disposed of a large number of Islamic religious materials" including Qurans.

    "When we learned of these actions, we immediately intervened and stopped them," the general said, adding that the recovered materials would be turned over to religious authorities. He thanked the local people who had brought the matter to light.

    "We are thoroughly investigating the incident and we are taking steps to ensure this does not ever happen again," Allen said. "This was not intentional in any way."


    Military officials call Quran burning by U.S. troops a mix-up, apologize to Afghans - Wire - Lifestyle - bellinghamherald.com

    People are human, it was a mistake. The mission of the Islam protesters is to forgive according to the book that was burned, the Koran. For those who fail in that there will be no winning of any hearts or any minds under any circumstances.

  3. #113
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    A mistake was made plain and simple. This is not an intentional act directed at these people or their beliefs. Moreover, should they wish for us to respect their beliefs they should practice what they preach. The US has attempted to make amends, in response these people rioted and killed. No one is trying to change these people, their culture, their beleif system that much has been clear regarding this incident.
    While all this is true, it is also irrelevant, which was my original point. There's little we can do to change or affect the reality described above.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 02-22-12 at 01:34 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #114
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    That is not my position at all. The manual is perfect for the audience it is directed to. The average poster is simply not a member of that audience and to hold them to the standard of "leaders and planners at the battalion level and above" is an inappropriate and a faulty application of that treatise.
    ah okay, my mistake for misunderstanding you.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  5. #115
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Your standard of perfection is impossible to meet each and every time.

    Do you know the exact circumstances surrounding the inclusion of these books?



    Military officials call Quran burning by U.S. troops a mix-up, apologize to Afghans - Wire - Lifestyle - bellinghamherald.com

    People are human, it was a mistake. The mission of the Islam protesters is to forgive according to the book that was burned, the Koran. For those who fail in that there will be no winning of any hearts or any minds under any circumstances.
    I quite disagree, but whether all mistakes can be avoided or not is irrelevant. It is still a mistake and likely to be costly.

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I quite disagree, but whether all mistakes can be avoided or not is irrelevant. It is still a mistake and likely to be costly.
    All parties are at fault: the detainees who negligently left the Koran behind, those who burned it, those who have acted like animals killing and rioting and the commanders in charge of the burning. There is nothing that would appease those who rioted. There is nothing that would win the protesters over, even perfection.

    This situation merely ignited a tinderbox of hatred that had already been existent.

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    All parties are at fault: the detainees who negligently left the Koran behind, those who burned it, those who have acted like animals killing and rioting and the commanders in charge of the burning. There is nothing that would appease those who rioted. There is nothing that would win the protesters over, even perfection.

    This situation merely ignited a tinderbox of hatred that had already been existent.
    If someone moves out of an apartment and leaves their garbage behind I don't think the landlord is obligated to go through it and filter out what goes to the dump and what does not. It's one thing to stand on a soapbox and pour lighter fluid on the Quran and then light it with a Bic lighter and a totally different thing to throw out a bunch of crap out that had a bunch of Qurans stashed inside.

    But either way, it's just another excuse these asshats in turbans can use for getting their loincloths in a bundle. Weakminded ****tards.

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    If someone moves out of an apartment and leaves their garbage behind I don't think the landlord is obligated to go through it and filter out what goes to the dump and what does not. It's one thing to stand on a soapbox and pour lighter fluid on the Quran and then light it with a Bic lighter and a totally different thing to throw out a bunch of crap out that had a bunch of Qurans stashed inside.

    But either way, it's just another excuse these asshats in turbans can use for getting their loincloths in a bundle. Weakminded ****tards.
    Unfortunately in this world of diplomatic relations the US has to take responsibility. The US made the amends which fit the situation. "Reports by witnesses at the burning and religious leaders who met with NATO officials at the Bagram Air Base where the incident occurred suggested that some copies had been pulled from the flames before they were badly damaged." The protesters made too much of this, now there are needless deaths and unrest.

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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Unfortunately in this world of diplomatic relations the US has to take responsibility. The US made the amends which fit the situation. "Reports by witnesses at the burning and religious leaders who met with NATO officials at the Bagram Air Base where the incident occurred suggested that some copies had been pulled from the flames before they were badly damaged." The protesters made too much of this, now there are needless deaths and unrest.
    The whole thing looks like a Chinese **** story to me. It's all stupid anyway you look at it.
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    Re: Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

    Big mistake for the United States, however, an even bigger mistake by the citizenry who have killed each other over this.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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