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Thread: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it's quite accurate. but prove me wrong. offer facts which will undermine my assertion

    the comparison to the US is regarding proxies. it appears some would insist that because iran provides assistance to those "proxies" aligned with its interests, we must conclude that iran is thus engaged in warfare
    using that rationale, we must also then conclude the US has been in perennial war via our own array of proxies across the globe
    I don't know about "perennial" - use of absolutes is always troublesome. But certainly "consistent". For example, currently we have training teams embedded with the Afghan Military and Police, training them to be effective at securing their areas from the depredations of the Taliban. So long as we continue to direct their efforts, they are our "proxies". NATO is headed by an American Commander who takes his ultimate direction from the President - hence NATO troops operating under American Command (such as in Libya) could be considered American "proxies".

    However, at the point at which we cease to direct their efforts, they cease to be our proxies. Hezbollah worldwide takes direction, as well as training, staffing, money, etc from Iran; which is why it is a "proxy". It is not considered part of their Order of Battle due to local recruitment and lack of an official nominal chain of command that ends with the Supreme Leader. That's why they are the worry for nukes - it's harder for us to bomb Iran for what Hezbollah does than it would be (say) for what the regular Iranian Army does.

    Don't really know or terribly care what point you are trying to make about the US - again, it remains irrelevant. The facts remain that Iran A) has a multi-decades long history of launching offensive operations not just in the Middle East, but around the world B) have created an incredibly powerful IRGC in order to do so and C) then given this same IRGC control over its' nuclear program.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-06-12 at 03:04 PM.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    There have been two facts offered in the discussion:

    1. Iran created, funds, trains, supplies, etc various groups such as Hezbolla.

    The fact that Iran provides assistance to certain proxies aligned with its interest is not necessarily a bad thing. However, using common sense rather than Noam Chomskism we see that the interests Iran is funding are a) not aligned with our own and b) are regarded as militant groups wishing to "obliterate" a certain sovereign nation (Israel). Thus we conclude that saying Iran has not taken military action in 200 years against a sovereign is misleading at best and wrong at worst.
    you present as fact that the proxies intent is to obliterate israel. please prove this. until you do, it cannot be accepted as the "fact" you insist it to be

    2. Iran's Qods force has been invloved in military action with the US

    This directly refutes the idea the Iran has not had any military action in 200 years.
    iran/qods has not initiated war on the USA. and that is because iran has not initiated a war against any sovereign nation in almost two centuries
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you present as fact that the proxies intent is to obliterate israel. please prove this. until you do, it cannot be accepted as the "fact" you insist it to be
    what? Hezbollahs' Charter is to Destroy Israel. That is why THEY say they were founded.

    first you needed to have the Hezbollah - Iran connection demonstrated to you, and now this. You may want to step out of this conversation while you are still way, way behind.

    iran/qods has not initiated war on the USA. and that is because iran has not initiated a war against any sovereign nation in almost two centuries
    oh, that's cute. circular argumentation: it's true because it's true I guess all those Qods guys in Iraq and Afghanistan shooting and bombing US troops are taking personal vacation time.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-06-12 at 03:14 PM.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what? Hezbollahs' Charter is to Destroy Israel. That is why THEY say they were founded.

    first you needed to have the Hezbollah - Iran connection demonstrated to you, and now this. You may want to step out of this conversation while you are still way, way behind.
    not gonna happen
    i refuse to adopt the zionist propaganda
    those who would have us attack a country that has not invaded another in two centuries, is without nuclear weapons, and is a signatory to the NPT, at the behest of a nation which has a nuclear arsenal, has no reservations about crossing another country's border to initiate "pre-emptive" war, and which refuses to sign the NPT


    oh, that's cute. circular argumentation: it's true because it's true I guess all those Qods guys in Iraq and Afghanistan shooting and bombing US troops are taking personal vacation time.
    and all this time i thought we were fighting al qaeda and the taliban which protects them. now you tell me we are there for a decade fighting iranian proxies. what next, going to insist they also possess weapons of mass destruction
    lay off the kool aid, its affecting your judgment
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..




    Right, well. Once you start accusing reality of being Zionist Propaganda, I think the possibility of rational debate is pretty much gone.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post



    Right, well. Once you start accusing reality of being Zionist Propaganda, I think the possibility of rational debate is pretty much gone.
    My mind is unable to process people that put the hamas and hezbollah terrorists before israel. I truly honestly cannot understand their line of thinking.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    [...] at the behest of a nation which has a nuclear arsenal [...]
    If you're talking about Israel here then I would like to see your proof.
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If you're talking about Israel here then I would like to see your proof.
    that it is at israel's urging
    or
    that israel is a nuclear power
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    that it is at israel's urging
    or
    that israel is a nuclear power
    The later.

    I don't know of any proof that Israel is a nuclear power. Oh, sure, there are lots of enuendos, rumors, even a few interesting facts, but no actual proof that Israel has even one nuclear bomb.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so, what you are saying is they provide backing to those with ideologies aligned with their own just as the USA does
    so, what they do is wrong while when we do it then it is good?
    Hardly. Reagan should have been impeached over the Contras. We funded, armed and trained a terrorist squad that murdered, maimed and raped thousands of civilians to topple a democratically elected government.

    I'm not saying that when we did it, it was okay, and when they did it, it was wrong. I'm just saying that funding, arming and training a force to attack your enemy outside of your army is a proxy. And if we count the use of proxies, Iran has been in direct military conflict with Israel since the Revolution.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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