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Thread: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

  1. #231
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Well, if Israel refused to sign it, they should get no benefit or protection from it, right?


    Let 'em all have nukes. Even the playing field.

    (Don't really mean that. Just trying to make a point.)

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    No, but international pressure should have been placed on Israel to sign it. I.e. no support from the U.S. unless the treaty is signed.
    Well that's a separate issue isn't it? Iran DID sign the NPT, and now the IAEA has indications that Iran has violated it. If Iran has not done so, then they should allow IAEA inspectors to verify this, which is NOT what Iran is doing now. The latest inspection tour ended up being talks only, no inspections allowed. It hardly inspires confidence in Iran's alleged peaceful intent.
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    Well that's a separate issue isn't it? Iran DID sign the NPT, and now the IAEA has indications that Iran has violated it. If Iran has not done so, then they should allow IAEA inspectors to verify this, which is NOT what Iran is doing now. The latest inspection tour ended up being talks only, no inspections allowed. It hardly inspires confidence in Iran's alleged peaceful intent.
    and you are spot on
    as far as you have gone

    what you have not wandered into is the question about why ISRAEL - a nation which refuses to cooperate internationally with nuclear non-proliferation - should be listened to about its concerns that iran is failing to cooperate with UN's enforcement of the NPT

    israel, because of its on intransigence, should be a voice unheard in this discussion

    just as we need to force iran's compliance, we similarly need to do the same for israel. not respond to its concerns that another nation in the region is on the cusp of doing what it has done. expand the construction of nuclear weapons
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  4. #234
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and you are spot on
    as far as you have gone

    what you have not wandered into is the question about why ISRAEL - a nation which refuses to cooperate internationally with nuclear non-proliferation - should be listened to about its concerns that iran is failing to cooperate with UN's enforcement of the NPT

    israel, because of its on intransigence, should be a voice unheard in this discussion

    just as we need to force iran's compliance, we similarly need to do the same for israel. not respond to its concerns that another nation in the region is on the cusp of doing what it has done. expand the construction of nuclear weapons
    Since Israel has not signed the treaty, no one has a legal recourse to force Israel to reveal it's nuclear secrets. If we were to "force" Israel to sign the NPT, It would be under duress. I think, legally, that would nullify the agreement. So that's a "no go" as well, unless you believe that's an acceptable way to handle treaties. I doubt you do.

    I really think that it's important to stay on point here. Can we at least agree the world doesn't need any more nuclear weapons? I expect you'll agree to that, and for the moment (until you say you want more nukes), I'll presume you do. By constantly re-directing the issue from Iran to Israel, you are giving defacto acceptance to Iran obtaining nuclear weaponry, claiming Israel as an excuse. Perhaps this isn't your intent, but it still has that effect. If Israel has nukes, they have them, but what we are trying to do in the current situation is not allow a country to make any more. If we persist in going backward all the time, we'll never manage to go forward. What I propose, is that we stay on point and concentrate on Iran. By this means, we can go forward and prevent any more nuclear weapons. I think less nukes is better than more nukes, don't you?
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    Since Israel has not signed the treaty, no one has a legal recourse to force Israel to reveal it's nuclear secrets. If we were to "force" Israel to sign the NPT, It would be under duress. I think, legally, that would nullify the agreement. So that's a "no go" as well, unless you believe that's an acceptable way to handle treaties. I doubt you do.

    I really think that it's important to stay on point here. Can we at least agree the world doesn't need any more nuclear weapons? I expect you'll agree to that, and for the moment (until you say you want more nukes), I'll presume you do. By constantly re-directing the issue from Iran to Israel, you are giving defacto acceptance to Iran obtaining nuclear weaponry, claiming Israel as an excuse. Perhaps this isn't your intent, but it still has that effect. If Israel has nukes, they have them, but what we are trying to do in the current situation is not allow a country to make any more. If we persist in going backward all the time, we'll never manage to go forward. What I propose, is that we stay on point and concentrate on Iran. By this means, we can go forward and prevent any more nuclear weapons. I think less nukes is better than more nukes, don't you?
    while i would prefer iran would not make nuclear arms i understand why it needs to do so
    because israel - which tends to make unprovoked "preemptive" strikes into the sovereign territory of other nations possesses a cache of nuclear arms
    ideally, israel gives its nuclear weapons up so that iran no longer feels compelled to match it in a race to achieve nuclear parity/Mutually Assured Destruction

    once iran has the nuclear weaponry in its own arsenal, then israel will no longer feel free to blast other nations such as iran and its allies, with impunity
    israel does not want to have its military wings clipped. which is why it is banging the war drums to try to get the USA on board to bless (and assist) its efforts to take out iran's nuclear development assets

    recognizing that israel will not be inclined to relinquish its nuclear weapons i would propose that we GIVE iran one. that's all it needs to establish a MAD scenario. if we were wise enough to do this, iran would have no need to develop its own nuclear capacity. one which we can be assured will exceed a singular device

    and recognizing that we are not going to provide that one N weapon to iran, that state is off on a tear to produce its own
    don't like it. but certainly understand it. if i were an iranian and saw what israel does to the Palestinians and other arabs, i would also expect my country to develop whatever weaponry would keep israel at bay

    the government of israel - to distinguish from the nation and population of israel - is a cancer in the region. it needs to be dealt with
    hopefully, next week, Obama will begin that journey with bibi
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  6. #236
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    while i would prefer iran would not make nuclear arms i understand why it needs to do so
    because israel - which tends to make unprovoked "preemptive" strikes into the sovereign territory of other nations possesses a cache of nuclear arms
    ideally, israel gives its nuclear weapons up so that iran no longer feels compelled to match it in a race to achieve nuclear parity/Mutually Assured Destruction

    once iran has the nuclear weaponry in its own arsenal, then israel will no longer feel free to blast other nations such as iran and its allies, with impunity
    israel does not want to have its military wings clipped. which is why it is banging the war drums to try to get the USA on board to bless (and assist) its efforts to take out iran's nuclear development assets

    I think this is the most logical statement of the situation I have seen expressed in this thread. Well done! Until there is nuclear parity between Israel and Iran, Israel has no incentive to negotiate a peaceful coexistence with its neighbors.
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    while i would prefer iran would not make nuclear arms i understand why it needs to do so
    because israel - which tends to make unprovoked "preemptive" strikes into the sovereign territory of other nations possesses a cache of nuclear arms
    ideally, israel gives its nuclear weapons up so that iran no longer feels compelled to match it in a race to achieve nuclear parity/Mutually Assured Destruction

    and recognizing that we are not going to provide that one N weapon to iran, that state is off on a tear to produce its own
    don't like it. but certainly understand it. if i were an iranian and saw what israel does to the Palestinians and other arabs, i would also expect my country to develop whatever weaponry would keep israel at bay

    the government of israel - to distinguish from the nation and population of israel - is a cancer in the region. it needs to be dealt with
    hopefully, next week, Obama will begin that journey with bibi
    The Hamas in Gaza has a habit of launching Katyusha rockets into Israel, predictably, Israel responds with airstrikes. The Hezbollah kidnapped an Israeli soldier and refused diplomatic attempts to return him, and Hezbollah also launched Katyusha rockets into Israel. Predictably, Israel attacks into Lebanon. The line of cause and effect is extremely linear and easy to follow.

    Looking from the opposite direction, the Palestinians in the West Bank have tried to cooperate with Israel and police themselves. Predictably, Israel has NOT launched airstrikes there in a long time. Iran has NOT launched rockets, missiles, or airstrikes at Israel. Predictably, Israel has NOT launched airstrikes at Iran. Once again, the line of cause and effect is extremely linear and easy to follow.

    The moral of the story is astoundingly clear. Don't strike Israel, and Israel will NOT strike you. Iran has nothing to fear from Israel so long as they do not attack Israel. Consequently, nuclear weapons are not necessary either. All Iran must do is NOT attack anyone else. Understanding that this peaceful approach is predictably effective, anyone claiming they need nukes to defend themselves from Israel, especially when Israel has NOT attacked them yet, must certainly have ulterior motives.
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    ...................................

    the government of israel - to distinguish from the nation and population of israel - is a cancer in the region. it needs to be dealt with
    hopefully, next week, Obama will begin that journey with bibi

    You know, I really try to keep an open mind to other people's opinions.... but when I start reading those kind of words like "Israel is a cancer" or "Israel is a tumor" etc... I can not take anything said in that context seriously.


    That's exactly like Ayatollah Khomeini from Iran sounds.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Mya View Post
    You know, I really try to keep an open mind to other people's opinions.... but when I start reading those kind of words like "Israel is a cancer" or "Israel is a tumor" etc... I can not take anything said in that context seriously.


    That's exactly like Ayatollah Khomeini from Iran sounds.
    did you notice the overt effort to distinguish the fine people and nation of israel from his cancerous government
    and to evidence the symmetry which exists that is also true of iran. the nation and the people are first rate. the iranian government - like israel's - needs replacing
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  10. #240
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    The Hamas in Gaza has a habit of launching Katyusha rockets into Israel, predictably, Israel responds with airstrikes. The Hezbollah kidnapped an Israeli soldier and refused diplomatic attempts to return him, and Hezbollah also launched Katyusha rockets into Israel. Predictably, Israel attacks into Lebanon. The line of cause and effect is extremely linear and easy to follow.

    Looking from the opposite direction, the Palestinians in the West Bank have tried to cooperate with Israel and police themselves. Predictably, Israel has NOT launched airstrikes there in a long time. Iran has NOT launched rockets, missiles, or airstrikes at Israel. Predictably, Israel has NOT launched airstrikes at Iran. Once again, the line of cause and effect is extremely linear and easy to follow.

    The moral of the story is astoundingly clear. Don't strike Israel, and Israel will NOT strike you. Iran has nothing to fear from Israel so long as they do not attack Israel. Consequently, nuclear weapons are not necessary either. All Iran must do is NOT attack anyone else. Understanding that this peaceful approach is predictably effective, anyone claiming they need nukes to defend themselves from Israel, especially when Israel has NOT attacked them yet, must certainly have ulterior motives.
    iran has not initiated hostilities against another nation in 200 years
    pity we cannot say that about israel for 200 MONTHS
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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