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Thread: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What was the price on the barrel head?
    About $2,600 after the tax credit.
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    About two-thirds.
    That sounds great! How many square feet? Also is this an initial install?

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    That sounds great! How many square feet? Also is this an initial install?
    Leaving room for access for bi-annual cleaning, about 500 square feet.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    LOL, i just love that "altenrative energy" crap.

    The only reason for still using petroleum to fuel vehicles is because the Oil Companies have enough money to pay the politicians to ban and emerging posibility.

    Fact: We have been able to seperate Oxygen and Hydrogen for a very long time now. Either can either be stored in Gasseous state of compressed to a liquid state.

    So if Hydrogen can be used in internal combustions engines or even jet engines, then why don't we do it? Following the Hindenburg disaster, strict laws were passed concerning the storage, transportation and use of Hydrogen. Many of those laws remain in place today despite almost 100 years of technological advancements in materials. It would not be legal to place oxygen and hydrogen cylinders on a passenger vehicle and power it's engine from them. Current materials technology could easily build cylinders that would not rupture during accidents. We use flow control and directional control valves for safety on Propane and Natural Gas systems already. Finally, there is only a very small increase in risk during refueling hydrogen/oxygen with modern valve systems vs the dangers involved in the way we pump gasoline today. The only thing stopping us from testing and then potentially adopting these systems is laws. Again, the oil companies lobby and pay politicians to ensure such laws never change.

    If all of you are really so concerned about the enviroment and alternative fuel, then why are you not now running hydrogen suplimental systems on your vehicles. Home build systems and instructions on how to build them have been around since at least the 1980s. The system is realy easy, take a post or similer, run a positive wire and a negative wire from your electrical system around the post but seperated. The current then has to flow through the water, releasing H2 (hydrogen) and O2 (oxygen) then just provide a means for it to get sucked into the engine. These systems work best on carburated systems, but only because of the need to adapt computer systems on todays cars to properly get the right fuel/air mix for the gasoline/diesel fuel used. (O2 sensors are used to measure the amount of free oxygen in the exhaust of vehicles which allows to the computer to know if the mixture is correct, rich (too much gas, not enough O2) or lean (not enough gas). The only other problem emplementing these systems is that with the introduction of the OBII computer system (designed by CARB and Cal EPA, mandated on all vehicles federally starting with the 1996 model year), they computer monitors performance and if it goes out of prescribed bounds, the computer readjust to adapt. Ok, this is not necessarily a bad thing on a gasoline engine, however, if you suplement with hydrogen, after a few weeks, the computer readjust everything to where you actually get no performance or efficiency from it's use. The computer knows your supposed to use x amount of gas per mile and it will ensure that you do, how dare you actually use less! These simple, but grossly controlled (the HHO or H2/O2 if you prefer is just sucked into the intake, not controlled like gasoline theoretically is) systems give great performance and efficiency boost and there is not an enviromental check in this country that you cannot pass even without a catalytic converter and your engine poorly tuned. So with all the whining and crying from all the enviromentalist, why have these systems not been mandated for the past 20+ years. Not only have they not been mandated, but laws in some states (and some federal laws depending on how you interpret them) have actually made it almost impossible to legally implement these systems (you have to alter the readings of some sensors, some states like California consider this alteration of emissions equipment.)

    While some manufactures (Diemler-Chrysler being one of them) worked with seperating hydrogen and oxygen and running the engine only on the output, unfortunately, the Law of Conservation of Energy and Matter kept them from being sucessful. You cannot seperate the two, burn them in a mechanical system (or even in a non-mechanical system) and get back more energy than you put in. In a zero loss system (not even a good theory, just a bunch of Sci-Fi mumbo jumbo) it would take all the energy you get from the system to seperate out the hydrogen/oxygen you need to run it, nothing left over to actually move the vehicle. For the backyard inventors and college students out there, you might be able to get enough solar energy to seperate the water, unfortunately, no night driving then since the law won't let you actually store/transport any of the H2/O2 you make.
    Last edited by DVSentinel; 02-21-12 at 10:30 PM.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    LOL, i just love that "altenrative energy" crap.

    The only reason for still using petroleum to fuel vehicles is because the Oil Companies have enough money to pay the politicians to ban and emerging posibility.

    Fact: We have been able to seperate Oxygen and Hydrogen for a very long time now. Either can either be stored in Gasseous state of compressed to a liquid state.

    So if Hydrogen can be used in internal combustions engines or even jet engines, then why don't we do it? Following the Hindenburg disaster, strict laws were passed concerning the storage, transportation and use of Hydrogen. Many of those laws remain in place today despite almost 100 years of technological advancements in materials. It would not be legal to place oxygen and hydrogen cylinders on a passenger vehicle and power it's engine from them. Current materials technology could easily build cylinders that would not rupture during accidents. We use flow control and directional control valves for safety on Propane and Natural Gas systems already. Finally, there is only a very small increase in risk during refueling hydrogen/oxygen with modern valve systems vs the dangers involved in the way we pump gasoline today. The only thing stopping us from testing and then potentially adopting these systems is laws. Again, the oil companies lobby and pay politicians to ensure such laws never change.

    If all of you are really so concerned about the enviroment and alternative fuel, then why are you not now running hydrogen suplimental systems on your vehicles. Home build systems and instructions on how to build them have been around since at least the 1980s. The system is realy easy, take a post or similer, run a positive wire and a negative wire from your electrical system around the post but seperated. The current then has to flow through the water, releasing H2 (hydrogen) and O2 (oxygen) then just provide a means for it to get sucked into the engine. These systems work best on carburated systems, but only because of the need to adapt computer systems on todays cars to properly get the right fuel/air mix for the gasoline/diesel fuel used. (O2 sensors are used to measure the amount of free oxygen in the exhaust of vehicles which allows to the computer to know if the mixture is correct, rich (too much gas, not enough O2) or lean (not enough gas). The only other problem emplementing these systems is that with the introduction of the OBII computer system (designed by CARB and Cal EPA, mandated on all vehicles federally starting with the 1996 model year), they computer monitors performance and if it goes out of prescribed bounds, the computer readjust to adapt. Ok, this is not necessarily a bad thing on a gasoline engine, however, if you suplement with hydrogen, after a few weeks, the computer readjust everything to where you actually get no performance or efficiency from it's use. The computer knows your supposed to use x amount of gas per mile and it will ensure that you do, how dare you actually use less! These simple, but grossly controlled (the HHO or H2/O2 if you prefer is just sucked into the intake, not controlled like gasoline theoretically is) systems give great performance and efficiency boost and there is not an enviromental check in this country that you cannot pass even without a catalytic converter and your engine poorly tuned. So with all the whining and crying from all the enviromentalist, why have these systems not been mandated for the past 20+ years. Not only have they not been mandated, but laws in some states (and some federal laws depending on how you interpret them) have actually made it almost impossible to legally implement these systems (you have to alter the readings of some sensors, some states like California consider this alteration of emissions equipment.)

    While some manufactures (Diemler-Chrysler being one of them) worked with seperating hydrogen and oxygen and running the engine only on the output, unfortunately, the Law of Conservation of Energy and Matter kept them from being sucessful. You cannot seperate the two, burn them in a mechanical system (or even in a non-mechanical system) and get back more energy than you put in. In a zero loss system (not even a good theory, just a bunch of Sci-Fi mumbo jumbo) it would take all the energy you get from the system to seperate out the hydrogen/oxygen you need to run it, nothing left over to actually move the vehicle. For the backyard inventors and college students out there, you might be able to get enough solar energy to seperate the water, unfortunately, no night driving then since the law won't let you actually store/transport any of the H2/O2 you make.
    Good argument against the strawman you created.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    While some manufactures (Diemler-Chrysler being one of them) worked with seperating hydrogen and oxygen and running the engine only on the output, unfortunately, the Law of Conservation of Energy and Matter kept them from being sucessful. You cannot seperate the two, burn them in a mechanical system (or even in a non-mechanical system) and get back more energy than you put in. In a zero loss system (not even a good theory, just a bunch of Sci-Fi mumbo jumbo) it would take all the energy you get from the system to seperate out the hydrogen/oxygen you need to run it, nothing left over to actually move the vehicle. For the backyard inventors and college students out there, you might be able to get enough solar energy to seperate the water, unfortunately, no night driving then since the law won't let you actually store/transport any of the H2/O2 you make.
    Sentinel, et al - this thread is about military action against Iran, and we're straying far off-topic. But Sentinel has some very interesting thoughts. A better place to chop this up is here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...epends-83.html I'd like to invite you to join us there.
    Check out my Blog http://momusnews.wordpress.com/
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Leaving room for access for bi-annual cleaning, about 500 square feet.
    Thank you for your help...

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Thank you for your help...
    You are more than welcome! Here is the place I got my Kaneka 60 W panels - Solar Cell, Solar Panel, Solar PV, Solar Products, Charge Controllers, Solar Trackers
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    With the new current developments in Iran, this has an erie Iraq feeling to it, with the UN team getting kicked out.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    LOL, i just love that "altenrative energy" crap.

    The only reason for still using petroleum to fuel vehicles is because the Oil Companies have enough money to pay the politicians to ban and emerging posibility.

    Fact: We have been able to seperate Oxygen and Hydrogen for a very long time now. Either can either be stored in Gasseous state of compressed to a liquid state.
    No kidding. The issue is the cost and the energy required to split water. Tons of research has and is being done to make it more efficient.

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