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Thread: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    And living in Saudi Arabia and shagging a few locals doesn't qualify as "knowledge" of the history of the ME, either. Your defense of the indefensible practices of that backwards rot-gut of the planet is indefensible.
    What? How disgusting you are.. What a filthy jackass you are to think I would cross cultures or be promiscuous.


    Is that your perfect defense of ignorance?

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    What? How disgusting you are.. What a filthy jackass you are to think I would cross cultures or be promiscuous.


    Is that your perfect defense of ignorance?
    No, just tired of reading your "I've-been-there-so-my-opinion-trumps-yours" posts on anything Middle East. To me, a soldier serving in the military over there has a far greater understanding of the issue at hand.

    No personal offense was meant - since we don't know each other at all - but you were condescendingly dismissive of a soldier's "version" of ME history, so I thought I'd condescendingly dismiss yours. In effect, both responses read virtually the same.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    And living in Saudi Arabia and shagging a few locals doesn't qualify as "knowledge" of the history of the ME, either. Your defense of the indefensible practices of that backwards rot-gut of the planet is indefensible.
    Dude, it's fine if you disagree with Sharon, but show some class and be civil in how you disagree.
    Check out my Blog http://momusnews.wordpress.com/
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    But who could they pass this capability on to, given their radical leadership? This region of the world is ruled largely and discreetly run by terrorist factions who belong to no state.
    LOL! I have to say that your above statement fairly well applies to the United States.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Lets see, as a teenager, I was watching for over a year while Irannian zealots held our embassy staff hostage and our so-called president did almost nothing about it. BTW, there have been several articles which have clarified the fact that their current "President" was indeed one of the hostage takers.

    Later I was flying surveilance missions over Saudi Arrabia as part of the US helping stop the Iran-Iraq war from spilling into other countries and on occasion getting chased around the skies by Iranian F-4s. I was watching Iranian aircraft attempting to make ship attack runs on US Naval ships. I was watching Iran threaten US flaged tankers and US Naval vessels in the Straights of Hormuz. I was watching as the US President that time didn't back down but parked a US Battleship in the middle of the Straights and told the Iranians that if they really wanted things that way, then go ahead and shoot, The Iranians backed down very fast. Amazing how good that deplomacy worked in dealing with these extremist, seems even a zealot might listen and honestly negotiate with 16 inch guns pointed at them.

    After that, I was in skies of Bosnia-Herzegovina when Iran sent in kill squads and tried to disrupt US and UN efforts to establish peace. I also saw the so-called President at the time tell one of our few ture friends and allies in the world that they should give up full autonomy over land they conquered when the peoples of that area had previously attacked them repeatedly. And what do you know, there is the very same Iran funding and supplying some of those very same terrorist attacking that same friend and ally.

    Later, I was in the skies of Iraq, finally helping remove a vile evil person from power and taking away his ability to kill his own people with WMDs and threatening his neighbors. Only to have Iran fund and supply insurgents killing American troops trying to rebuild that country afterwards. I watched as the US President at that time was almost powerless to act against Iran because the military his predessor left him, which was supposed to be able to fight at least one Major conflict and one Minor conflict simultaneously, was bogged down and struggling with two minor conflicts because the previous so called President had left it poorly maintained, equiped and with Generals/Officers who were masters at kissing a poloticians backs side but couldn't actually lead our forces to fight their way out of a wet paper sack.

    Afer that, I watched Obama try to persue the same failed diplomatic tactics that Clinton tried to use to prevent North Korea from getting Nuclear Weapons while telling our friend and ally Isreal to give back land it took as a bufferzone the previous time Arabs became agressively hostile. And yes, those tactics were a failure, witness the fact that North Korea now has Nuclear weapons. Of course, no in the world would actually believe Obama if he tried Reagon's style of negotiation, few in world could conceive that Obama would actually have the intestinal fortitude to pull the trigger and it would just be an empty threat. Instead, he makes nice pretty speeches about how he is doing something and it will work while telling Isreal, one of our truest and most loyal allies in the world, to make concessions to placate Iran and the "muslim" world.

    Reagon should of given the Liberals the finger and went ahead and took these bastards out then. Carter didn't have the guts, and thanks to him Reagon didn't have the ability at first, to do it when it should of been done. George H. Bush also passed up the opportunity, he could of easily taken out that evil bastard Hussein and Iran and would of been more than justified to do so. Then came Clinton who also didn't have the guts to do what should of been done, screwed over the military and let North Korea, another enemy, get nuclear weapons. Clinton's gutlessness and unwillingness (later, inability after he gutted the military) directly lead to Al Queda being able to form, build and later carry out the 9/11 attacks because he didn't take decisive, effective actions against Al Queda when they were attacking our embassies, ships and interests, causing George W. Bush to have to deal with them. Clinton also failed to take action to keep the WMD inspectors in Iraq (he didn't get caught diddling someone other than his wife that month) which caused the intelligence failure that led to the invasion of Iraq (something that should of been done and over during George H. Bushes time). G. W. also should of used his time to rebuild our military and give it the leadership it needed and went ahead and taken these idiots out also.

    So where have I been, I have been spending 30+ years watching Iran declare itself a mortal enemy and US leadership not do the proper thing and take them out. I have been watching US Presidents attempt to screw over friends and allies and tolerate repeated provocations from Iran just to placate an enemy. I have been watching Iran give support and equipement to terrorist who have attacked our people and our interests and kill the people of one of our few true friends and allies. (not to mention them trying on several occasions to kill me personally) I have absolutely no faith that Obama will finally grow a pair and do what is right and necessary, more likely Isreal will have to take action on it's own because the Nation that it has befriended and shown loyality to elected a gutless blunder who doesn't even understand the concepts of ture friendships and loyality, much less be willing to act out of those setinments. I have little to no doubt that Obama will instead of supporting Isreal, he will again try to screw them over and if they initiate actions themselves, he will probably try to deny them military supplies in a useless attempt to placate and enemy instead taking out that enemy. I also have little to no doubt that should Iran actually develope a nuclear weapon, they will field test it over Tel Aviv as quickly as they can get it there.
    First, let me say, "Welcome Home", brother.

    The U.S. and the west has had a long and sordid history in the region, and with Iran. Our skirts are not clean. Had we experienced the same in reverse we'd be steady after Iran; no retreat and no surrender. Who would blame us?

    As the United States finds itself in the aftermath of another crisis in the Middle East, it is worth the risk of opprobrium to ask why there should be hostility toward America in that region. Some insight can be gained by surveying official U.S. conduct in the Middle East since the end of World War II. Acknowledged herein is a fundamental, yet deplorably overlooked, distinction between understanding and excusing. The purpose of this survey is not to pardon acts of violence against innocent people but to understand the reasons that drive people to violent political acts.[2] The stubborn and often self-serving notion that the historical record is irrelevant because political violence is inexcusable ensures that Americans will be caught in crises in the Middle East and elsewhere for many years to come.

    After 70 years of broken Western promises regarding Arab independence, it should not be surprising that the West is viewed with suspicion and hostility by the populations (as opposed to some of the political regimes) of the Middle East.[3] The United States, as the heir to British imperialism in the region, has been a frequent object of suspicion. Since the end of World War II, the United States, like the European colonial powers before it, has been unable to resist becoming entangled in the region's political conflicts. Driven by a desire to keep the vast oil reserves in hands friendly to the United States, a wish to keep out potential rivals (such as the Soviet Union), opposition to neutrality in the cold war, and domestic political considerations, the United States has compiled a record of tragedy in the Middle East. The most recent part of that record, which includes U.S. alliances with Iraq to counter Iran and then with Iran and Syria to counter Iraq, illustrates a theme that has been played in Washington for the last 45 years.
    The full report is here. It is from the CATO Institute, which is not a left wing think tank. I would encourage others to read the report, especially if you are unfamiliar with the US and western involvement in the Middle East. Warning: It isn't pretty if you are under the impression that America wears a white hat.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    do you forget turkey?
    I wouldn't consider Turkey an alley as they did not let us use their ports for the kick off of the Iraq war. They are a fair weather friend.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Lets see, as a teenager, I was watching for over a year while Irannian zealots held our embassy staff hostage and our so-called president did almost nothing about it. BTW, there have been several articles which have clarified the fact that their current "President" was indeed one of the hostage takers.

    Later I was flying surveilance missions over Saudi Arrabia as part of the US helping stop the Iran-Iraq war from spilling into other countries and on occasion getting chased around the skies by Iranian F-4s. I was watching Iranian aircraft attempting to make ship attack runs on US Naval ships. I was watching Iran threaten US flaged tankers and US Naval vessels in the Straights of Hormuz. I was watching as the US President that time didn't back down but parked a US Battleship in the middle of the Straights and told the Iranians that if they really wanted things that way, then go ahead and shoot, The Iranians backed down very fast. Amazing how good that deplomacy worked in dealing with these extremist, seems even a zealot might listen and honestly negotiate with 16 inch guns pointed at them.

    After that, I was in skies of Bosnia-Herzegovina when Iran sent in kill squads and tried to disrupt US and UN efforts to establish peace. I also saw the so-called President at the time tell one of our few ture friends and allies in the world that they should give up full autonomy over land they conquered when the peoples of that area had previously attacked them repeatedly. And what do you know, there is the very same Iran funding and supplying some of those very same terrorist attacking that same friend and ally.

    Later, I was in the skies of Iraq, finally helping remove a vile evil person from power and taking away his ability to kill his own people with WMDs and threatening his neighbors. Only to have Iran fund and supply insurgents killing American troops trying to rebuild that country afterwards. I watched as the US President at that time was almost powerless to act against Iran because the military his predessor left him, which was supposed to be able to fight at least one Major conflict and one Minor conflict simultaneously, was bogged down and struggling with two minor conflicts because the previous so called President had left it poorly maintained, equiped and with Generals/Officers who were masters at kissing a poloticians backs side but couldn't actually lead our forces to fight their way out of a wet paper sack.

    Afer that, I watched Obama try to persue the same failed diplomatic tactics that Clinton tried to use to prevent North Korea from getting Nuclear Weapons while telling our friend and ally Isreal to give back land it took as a bufferzone the previous time Arabs became agressively hostile. And yes, those tactics were a failure, witness the fact that North Korea now has Nuclear weapons. Of course, no in the world would actually believe Obama if he tried Reagon's style of negotiation, few in world could conceive that Obama would actually have the intestinal fortitude to pull the trigger and it would just be an empty threat. Instead, he makes nice pretty speeches about how he is doing something and it will work while telling Isreal, one of our truest and most loyal allies in the world, to make concessions to placate Iran and the "muslim" world.

    Reagon should of given the Liberals the finger and went ahead and took these bastards out then. Carter didn't have the guts, and thanks to him Reagon didn't have the ability at first, to do it when it should of been done. George H. Bush also passed up the opportunity, he could of easily taken out that evil bastard Hussein and Iran and would of been more than justified to do so. Then came Clinton who also didn't have the guts to do what should of been done, screwed over the military and let North Korea, another enemy, get nuclear weapons. Clinton's gutlessness and unwillingness (later, inability after he gutted the military) directly lead to Al Queda being able to form, build and later carry out the 9/11 attacks because he didn't take decisive, effective actions against Al Queda when they were attacking our embassies, ships and interests, causing George W. Bush to have to deal with them. Clinton also failed to take action to keep the WMD inspectors in Iraq (he didn't get caught diddling someone other than his wife that month) which caused the intelligence failure that led to the invasion of Iraq (something that should of been done and over during George H. Bushes time). G. W. also should of used his time to rebuild our military and give it the leadership it needed and went ahead and taken these idiots out also.

    So where have I been, I have been spending 30+ years watching Iran declare itself a mortal enemy and US leadership not do the proper thing and take them out. I have been watching US Presidents attempt to screw over friends and allies and tolerate repeated provocations from Iran just to placate an enemy. I have been watching Iran give support and equipement to terrorist who have attacked our people and our interests and kill the people of one of our few true friends and allies. (not to mention them trying on several occasions to kill me personally) I have absolutely no faith that Obama will finally grow a pair and do what is right and necessary, more likely Isreal will have to take action on it's own because the Nation that it has befriended and shown loyality to elected a gutless blunder who doesn't even understand the concepts of ture friendships and loyality, much less be willing to act out of those setinments. I have little to no doubt that Obama will instead of supporting Isreal, he will again try to screw them over and if they initiate actions themselves, he will probably try to deny them military supplies in a useless attempt to placate and enemy instead taking out that enemy. I also have little to no doubt that should Iran actually develope a nuclear weapon, they will field test it over Tel Aviv as quickly as they can get it there.


    All I want to say is thank you! you are not what many of us are "an armchair general" so to speak, but you have been there and done that, so thank you DVSentinel

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Lets see, as a teenager, I was watching for over a year while Irannian zealots held our embassy staff hostage and our so-called president did almost nothing about it. BTW, there have been several articles which have clarified the fact that their current "President" was indeed one of the hostage takers.

    Later I was flying surveilance missions over Saudi Arrabia as part of the US helping stop the Iran-Iraq war from spilling into other countries and on occasion getting chased around the skies by Iranian F-4s. I was watching Iranian aircraft attempting to make ship attack runs on US Naval ships. I was watching Iran threaten US flaged tankers and US Naval vessels in the Straights of Hormuz. I was watching as the US President that time didn't back down but parked a US Battleship in the middle of the Straights and told the Iranians that if they really wanted things that way, then go ahead and shoot, The Iranians backed down very fast. Amazing how good that deplomacy worked in dealing with these extremist, seems even a zealot might listen and honestly negotiate with 16 inch guns pointed at them.

    After that, I was in skies of Bosnia-Herzegovina when Iran sent in kill squads and tried to disrupt US and UN efforts to establish peace. I also saw the so-called President at the time tell one of our few ture friends and allies in the world that they should give up full autonomy over land they conquered when the peoples of that area had previously attacked them repeatedly. And what do you know, there is the very same Iran funding and supplying some of those very same terrorist attacking that same friend and ally.

    Later, I was in the skies of Iraq, finally helping remove a vile evil person from power and taking away his ability to kill his own people with WMDs and threatening his neighbors. Only to have Iran fund and supply insurgents killing American troops trying to rebuild that country afterwards. I watched as the US President at that time was almost powerless to act against Iran because the military his predessor left him, which was supposed to be able to fight at least one Major conflict and one Minor conflict simultaneously, was bogged down and struggling with two minor conflicts because the previous so called President had left it poorly maintained, equiped and with Generals/Officers who were masters at kissing a poloticians backs side but couldn't actually lead our forces to fight their way out of a wet paper sack.

    Afer that, I watched Obama try to persue the same failed diplomatic tactics that Clinton tried to use to prevent North Korea from getting Nuclear Weapons while telling our friend and ally Isreal to give back land it took as a bufferzone the previous time Arabs became agressively hostile. And yes, those tactics were a failure, witness the fact that North Korea now has Nuclear weapons. Of course, no in the world would actually believe Obama if he tried Reagon's style of negotiation, few in world could conceive that Obama would actually have the intestinal fortitude to pull the trigger and it would just be an empty threat. Instead, he makes nice pretty speeches about how he is doing something and it will work while telling Isreal, one of our truest and most loyal allies in the world, to make concessions to placate Iran and the "muslim" world.

    Reagon should of given the Liberals the finger and went ahead and took these bastards out then. Carter didn't have the guts, and thanks to him Reagon didn't have the ability at first, to do it when it should of been done. George H. Bush also passed up the opportunity, he could of easily taken out that evil bastard Hussein and Iran and would of been more than justified to do so. Then came Clinton who also didn't have the guts to do what should of been done, screwed over the military and let North Korea, another enemy, get nuclear weapons. Clinton's gutlessness and unwillingness (later, inability after he gutted the military) directly lead to Al Queda being able to form, build and later carry out the 9/11 attacks because he didn't take decisive, effective actions against Al Queda when they were attacking our embassies, ships and interests, causing George W. Bush to have to deal with them. Clinton also failed to take action to keep the WMD inspectors in Iraq (he didn't get caught diddling someone other than his wife that month) which caused the intelligence failure that led to the invasion of Iraq (something that should of been done and over during George H. Bushes time). G. W. also should of used his time to rebuild our military and give it the leadership it needed and went ahead and taken these idiots out also.

    So where have I been, I have been spending 30+ years watching Iran declare itself a mortal enemy and US leadership not do the proper thing and take them out. I have been watching US Presidents attempt to screw over friends and allies and tolerate repeated provocations from Iran just to placate an enemy. I have been watching Iran give support and equipement to terrorist who have attacked our people and our interests and kill the people of one of our few true friends and allies. (not to mention them trying on several occasions to kill me personally) I have absolutely no faith that Obama will finally grow a pair and do what is right and necessary, more likely Isreal will have to take action on it's own because the Nation that it has befriended and shown loyality to elected a gutless blunder who doesn't even understand the concepts of ture friendships and loyality, much less be willing to act out of those setinments. I have little to no doubt that Obama will instead of supporting Isreal, he will again try to screw them over and if they initiate actions themselves, he will probably try to deny them military supplies in a useless attempt to placate and enemy instead taking out that enemy. I also have little to no doubt that should Iran actually develope a nuclear weapon, they will field test it over Tel Aviv as quickly as they can get it there.
    Not to be too particular, but let's get a few things straight.

    First, Carter did in fact order Delta into Iran to free the hostages, but they screwed it up. It's funny how conservatives give Obama no credit for taking out bin Laden -- it being the SEALs who did all the work -- but they simultaneously give Carter all the blame for the Delta's failure.

    Second, North Korea actually went nuclear on Bush's watch -- not Clinton's. It was going to happen eventually but Bush gave them the excuse when he labeled them part of the "Axis of Evil" -- in violation of an accord we had with them.

    Third, while I refrain from engaging in conspiracy theories, there are more than a few respectable individuals, including one from Reagan's team, who allege that the release of the hostages 20 minutes into Reagan's term was anything but kosher.

    Finally, Iran is going to get the nuclear bomb. You can't stuff that genie back in the bottle. They will not use it against Israel as they are not suicidal. Mutually assured destruction will continue to operate as it has for the last 60 years. We might as well get used to the idea that we will have to deal with Iran on the diplomatic front, and Israel had better figure that out as well. The last thing we need, or can afford, is yet another unwinnable ME quagmire.
    Last edited by AdamT; 02-20-12 at 11:36 PM.

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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    No, just tired of reading your "I've-been-there-so-my-opinion-trumps-yours" posts on anything Middle East. To me, a soldier serving in the military over there has a far greater understanding of the issue at hand.
    Do you mean like the majority of post 9/11 Veterans who think the Iraq war wasn't worth it???
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    Re: PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..



    Not sure this equals a majority, but it does suggest it wasn't as popular as some claim.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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