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Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

If you follow the entire exchange, one dolt on his high horse claimed that nobody could logically explain why we don’t allow SSM.

I pointed out that nobody is requiring a logical explanation for any of the perks we grant.

We give education perks to people with good grades, but I fail to see the logical benefit of giving educational assistance to elderly people.

Actually its perfectly logical to help people who work hard for their grades or who are able to easily understand concepts that may be difficult for others to understand. I dont see how you think it isnt. Not allowing SSM to be legal however does not have any basis in logic.
 
Actually its perfectly logical to help people who work hard for their grades or who are able to easily understand concepts that may be difficult for others to understand. I dont see how you think it isnt. Not allowing SSM to be legal however does not have any basis in logic.


If the person getting financial aid has a known terminal disease, explain the logic behind giving him money to earn an advanced degree.
 
I'd rather go the faster way, and have the SCOTUS handle it. However, don't worry, I will vote for it whenever I can as well.

Yeah me to, If they rule in the favor of gay marriage I won't like it but I will accept it. How about you if they rule against gay marriage will you accept the ruling and stop this nonsense?
 
If the person getting financial aid has a known terminal disease, explain the logic behind giving him money to earn an advanced degree.

Ever heard of Stephan Hawking? Guy was diagnosed with Lou Gehrigs disease when he was 21 and told he had 2-3 years to live but hes 70 years old now and contributed greatly to the scientific community in that time.
 
so the GOP are against big gov but yet they want the government to impose bans on American citizens right to marry....messed up world

Small Government is a generalized way people describe the typical mindset of conservatives which is better explained in a long form fashion of wanting a constitutionally limited federal government. Not passing a law to expand what the marriage laws currently allow does not necessarily go against that notion. Passing a constitutional amendment ALSO would not go against that notion; on the contrary, it'd coincide with it as doing it in amendment form would be the constitutional method in which it should occur.

There are some perhaps in the GOP who would approve of having the federal government simply pass a law that disallows states form implimenting gay marriage, but to my understanding that is not a widely held across the board stance.

While I disagree with limiting marriage to opposite sex couples for constitutional reasons (That have nothing to do with homosexuality), there is nothing inherently non-consevative (in relation to its meaning in a US Political sense) about seeking a constitutional amendment banning states from allowing gay marriage or opposing laws that expand the definition of it on a federal level. Neither stance violates the notion of a constitutionally limited federal government.
 
Ever heard of Stephan Hawking? Guy was diagnosed with Lou Gehrigs disease when he was 21 and told he had 2-3 years to live but hes 70 years old now and contributed greatly to the scientific community in that time.

I've also heard of people that amazingly recover from cancer with no treatment, but that doesn't mean it's logical to not treat cancer because of isolated cases to the contrary.

but hey, liberal logic
 
there is nothing inherently non-consevative (in relation to its meaning in a US Political sense) about seeking a constitutional amendment banning states from allowing gay marriage or opposing laws that expand the definition of it on a federal level. Neither stance violates the notion of a constitutionally limited federal government.

No, but it violates the very concept of a free country. The idea that you should have to prove a need to be allowed to do something private before the government grants you a right to do it, as opposed to the idea that you're free to do whatever the hell you want to do, unless the government can prove that it has a need to stop you, is the antithesis of a free society.

The idea of a "constitutionally limited federal government" is nice, but to what end? We could write fascism, communism, or anything else into the Constitution through amendments, and then have a "constitutionally limited federal government", but not a free country. An empty framework may be nice, but not that nice. If the objective is individual freedom, then simply following the framework isn't meaningful, without considering what you're putting into it.

Banning gay marriage is inherently un-American.
 
The idea of a "constitutionally limited federal government" is nice, but to what end?

the end is up to the point where the lower states are unable to perform the same function.

defense is the greatest example.

today, the only reason things like healthcare can't be handled by the states is because it has too be paid for. If you pass the buck to the federal government, you can just make future generations pay for it
 
If the person getting financial aid has a known terminal disease, explain the logic behind giving him money to earn an advanced degree.

See, the issues are different because one involves a lack of limitation based on the person's potential future, while the other involve an actual limitation based on a specific characteristic that is held to a high standard of scrutiny under the EP clause of the 14th Amendment, sex. The SCOTUS has already ruled that any limitation to a government program or done by the government based on sex has to have an important state interest and the limitation must be directly related to that state interest. This means that when it comes to limitations based on sex, such as with same sex marriage, the government is required to be logical in its application of such limitation and why it is in place.
 
Yeah me to, If they rule in the favor of gay marriage I won't like it but I will accept it. How about you if they rule against gay marriage will you accept the ruling and stop this nonsense?

No, because I will believe they are wrong and know that it will come across their court again in the future, just as segregation and miscegenation laws had to be ruled on several times before they got it right.

The difference is that once equality is given, there is little argument to change it back because no one's rights are being infringed upon when same sex marriage is legal. Right now, and until same sex marriage is legal across the country, same sex couples are being discriminated against due to their sex.
 
I've also heard of people that amazingly recover from cancer with no treatment, but that doesn't mean it's logical to not treat cancer because of isolated cases to the contrary.

but hey, liberal logic

Thats a completely different situation and in no way relates to giving people education benefits for getting good grades.
 
Well speaking for me I hope gay marriage is outlawed so we won't have to worry about it.

And speaking for me, I hope that it is completely legalized so we don't have to worry about it.
 
I've also heard of people that amazingly recover from cancer with no treatment, but that doesn't mean it's logical to not treat cancer because of isolated cases to the contrary.

but hey, liberal logic

Actually, what he's saying is that your "exception proves the rule" position is irrelevant.
 
I wish no one sinned in the homosexual act just as I do straight in illicit sex but what they do is not against the law its just a mortal sin and even if allowed to marry that will never change in the eyes of the church..

So is adultrey Navy....actually...."Thou shalt not commit adultrey is one of the ten commandments". "Though shalt not get gay married", however, isn't.

Aside from that....it is quite funny to hear you preaching morals and values when not even a week ago you were "bragging" about galavanting around whorehouses and getting tail from prostitutes when you were in the Navy. Can you say...a little hypocritical?
 
Well speaking for me I hope gay marriage is outlawed so we won't have to worry about it.

As long as it is illegal or not allowed, it will always be an issue because at least half the country believes that same sex marriage should be legal. Eventually, same sex marriage will be legal all over the US. Likely it will be within the next decade or less. But even if it takes longer, it will happen because more and more people, especially younger generations, see outlawing same sex marriage as a civil rights violation so they will keep fighting for it til it is legal.

This is true even if a Constitutional Amendment does happen to be put in place defining marriage between a man and a woman because we know from history that Amendments can be repealed by another Amendment and eventually enough people will be for same sex marriage being legal to get it repealed. Honestly though, I do not believe that an anti-SSM Amendment stands a chance of getting through the Amendment process right now since it requires a lot more than a majority vote to pass an Amendment and more and more states are legalizing same sex marriage.
 
No, but it violates the very concept of a free country.

Not really, in large part because "free country" is in and of itself a vague and nebulous notion. Indeed, an equally strong argument could be made that granting marriage rights and privledges to anyone inherently goes against the concept of a free country as the state is placing limitations on some people.

The idea that you should have to prove a need to be allowed to do something private before the government grants you a right to do it, as opposed to the idea that you're free to do whatever the hell you want to do, unless the government can prove that it has a need to stop you, is the antithesis of a free society.

Wow that's a convoluted sentence. Going to do my best to follow the logic hear...

First, "marriage" of any kind that is recognized by the state isn't "something private" first and foremost. There's to my knowledge no substantial movement in this country by the GOP to have the government force same sex people to not be able to enter into a private marriage pact.

Second, the issue with ANY form of societal right is the fact that it IS constrained by the social contract and as such government and society can attach various strings to it. That's the inherent disadvantage and weakness of societal rights compared to natural ones.

Third, based on your definition of what is a free society...which seems to be that you must be free to do whatever hte hell you want to do unless the government can "prove" that is has a "need" to stop you (two more nebulous vague terms)...then we've not been a free country for the majority of our existance.

Fourth, all of that had little to do with talking about the government allowing people additional benefits from the government but rather was speaking about doing things in private and the government limiting those...which doesn't really apply to government recognized same sex marriage.

The idea of a "constitutionally limited federal government" is nice, but to what end? We could write fascism, communism, or anything else into the Constitution through amendments, and then have a "constitutionally limited federal government", but not a free country.

Absolutely correct. That IS possible. It's also likely the point where you have a number of individuals finally break from the social contract and attempt to part ways with the seeming majority that would be catagorically changing the mindset of how America should function. That said, part of the beauty of the Constitution is that its extremely difficult to change (at least in the manner it actually lays out for changing it) making your hypothetical a long shot unless a large majority of the country agrees.

An empty framework may be nice, but not that nice.

No worse than an empty framework of a "Free" country that uses nebulous terms like you presented earlier that places all the power into whatever majority gains control and gets to deem what is "proof" and what constitutes a government "need".

If the objective is individual freedom, then simply following the framework isn't meaningful, without considering what you're putting into it.

Individual freedom is the philosophical mentality to push for as much as possible, within the framework of the constitution. If the care was truly singularly about individual freedom then there wouldn't be "freedom of speech"...because If I have the ability to force you to shut your mouth and not talk if you don't let me do that you're limiting my individual freedom. We wouldn't have the various rights against search and seizure, because you're limiting my individual freedom if you disallow me the ability to take whatever I can from you. The very concept of any society typically relies upon the notion that, through the social contract, we're agreeing to give up portions of our individual freedom for the time that we coexist within that contract.

Conservatives seek to strive for pushing the ideal of individual freedom, but seek to do so within the framework of our social contract which is generally outlined within the Constitution.
 
Conservatives seek to strive for pushing the ideal of individual freedom, but seek to do so within the framework of our social contract which is generally outlined within the Constitution.

That sounds a whole hell of a like "Conservatives believe in individual freedom, but only for the things they want".
 
Christie said he vetoed the bill because it wasn't a state referendum where the voters could vote on it (like in almost every other state). I agree with the veto in this case.
 
Christie said he vetoed the bill because it wasn't a state referendum where the voters could vote on it (like in almost every other state). I agree with the veto in this case.

So voters should vote on other people's civil rights?
 
That sounds a whole hell of a like "Conservatives believe in individual freedom, but only for the things they want".

If you're own political biases and prejudices creates phantom words in place of what I've actually said there's nothing I really can do about that. Individual Freedom is inherently limited to certain degree's in our political system...be it in the notion that ones rights end where anothers begins or in the fact that, technically, an individual is limited in what they should be able to accomplish through the use of the federal government as opposed to the state governments based on the limitations and privledges bestowed to both of those groups. Anyone outside of a true anarchist can not claim, to a truthful extreme, to be focused solely on individual liberty.

It is only when people decide to be purposefully obtuse that they take something said in the context of the typical mainline US political spectrum and act like it must be meant in its truest of extremes. When talking about "individual freedom" in the context of Conservatism in the United States it is speaking about individual freedom functioning within the limitations and confines set forth by the Constitution.

While individuals who lean on the conservative side may not actually adhere to conservative principles 100% of the time, or they may choose one portion of the ideology as more important than another portion when instances of ideology can come into conflict, that does not reflect on what the ideology suggests but merely reflects on the individuals own actions.
 
So voters should vote on other people's civil rights?

Of course, considering marriage is a civil contract given out by the state. The state issues the marriage license, marriage is a social contract, and therefore the state's populace can vote on how to define marriage and that civil contract.
 
So voters should vote on other people's civil rights?

Legally speaking thus far, homosexuals are still considered a bottom tier protected category with regards to their constitutional protection under the law and thus far there has been nothing shown in the court that matters that the Government does not have the required reasons to legally discriminate against them. Even the position I hold, which is concerning gender discrimination, hasn't made it to the SCOTUS yet to have a true final say.

As such, while there is recognized as a constitutional right in this country to allow for marriage, at this time the law does not recognize a constitutional right that said words definition must emcompass same sex couplings. While this may change, and one may hold the OPINION that it is unconstitutional, the case law as it resides in this country currently suggest otherwise.

Due to this, the issue of defining marriage is one that is left ot the states not the federal government. I see no issue, at this point, in allowing the people of a state to vote on a state issue to determine what the state's law will be as long as it adhere's to the supremacy clause. As such, since case law clearly demonstrates that marriage can not be barred based on race, a state could not vote that marriage be only between people of the same race. However, until such time that case law says otherwise, no such proteciton is affored to same sex restrictions.

So, in answer to your strawman leading question that actually didn't respond to what he talked about....no, voters shouldn't do direct votes regarding constitutionally protected civil rights.

In answer to the generalized question you asked to what he ACTUALLY said...yes, voters should be able to vote on state laws that do not violate federal law or constitutional protectoins.
 
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