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Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

What societies are you refering to?

For which part?

In Africa, there have been many tribes that allow women to marry other women and use a man from outside the marriage to father children that the women raise together.

There has been at least one recorded case of a family in China (centuries ago) who had a wedding for the dead daughter of one family with the dead son of another family so that the families could have a legal connection to each other.

Marriage has been about family ties more than any other thing in history. Procreation is a secondary, like many other things such as business arrangements, ending family feuds, or joining countries/kingdoms.

Yes, I failed to address those 5 states because I have no knowledge of what 5 states or what laws you are referring to. Since my time to use the computer on a daily basis is limited by health problems, I am not going to use that time to research a vague reference.

5 states, Arizona, Illinois, Indiana, Utah, and Wisconsin, only allow first cousins to be legally married if they cannot procreate. Why let them marry at all if marriage is about procreation and they cannot be able to do so in order to legally marry?
 
Again, obama did.the same thing. :shrug:

Obama has vetoed a same sex marriage bill? How did we all miss that one?

Oh, wait, he hasn't. He has stated what he believes, but considering his stance on DOMA, it is quite likely that he would not veto any bill that allows the US government to recognize SSM even if he personally believes that it should be between a man and a woman.

Actions speak louder than words.
 
How do I get through to. I have no problem what gays or straights do in the privacy of their bedrooms. I just believe unlike you is that is where it belongs...why can't you understand that? getting past the marriage thingy I could be one of your best allies. I believe that gays deserve equal rights the same as I have and believe that can be accomplished by civil unions or anything else you want to name it...just not Holy Matrimony

Legal marriage is not Holy Matrimony. Holy Matrimony is a part of some people's personal marriages. It is not required in legal marriage. In fact, holy matrimony was never mentioned during my wedding ceremony because neither my husband nor I are religious.

Legal marriage is simply a contract.
 
a recent post of mine.

do you have a reading comprehension. I said several times that I don't want to see anyone flaunt their sexuality be they straight or gay...........Now please try and keep up...thanks

So then no wedding should ever be made public? Or maybe no one should ever be allowed to kiss or hold hands in public? Simply because you find it disturbing or even inappropriate?
 
Oh, the irony!


Gotta love your constant sniping at me. This thread is about Christie and gay marriage, pointing out similar positions he holds with the current potus demonstrates my point about this being more about scoring political points than gay marriage for some on the left. I've made points on topic to.numerous posters, you posted one.line snippets, you know the kind thaf kead to little white boxes for.some. But hey, you carry on, :thumbs:
 
Obama has vetoed a same sex marriage bill? How did we all miss that one?

Oh, wait, he hasn't. He has stated what he believes, but considering his stance on DOMA, it is quite likely that he would not veto any bill that allows the US government to recognize SSM even if he personally believes that it should be between a man and a woman.

Actions speak louder than words.



All I'm saying is they are on record saying very similar things.
 
Reverend... truthfully, this is a poor decision on his part. If he was elected to serve the people, and he is confident that the people will pass this on referendum, why would he veto it? His personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. He was elected to serve the people, not himself. Why do you think he'd veto it, based on this?


I disagree with this, one should not govern by polls, but by thier convictions. People for example overwhelmingly support a national ccw right, should a non pro 2nd president sign a bill allowing it? Would anyone fault him for vetoing it?
 
I disagree with this, one should not govern by polls, but by thier convictions. People for example overwhelmingly support a national ccw right, should a non pro 2nd president sign a bill allowing it? Would anyone fault him for vetoing it?

Completely disagree. One should govern based on how the people lean on a specific issue. That's the job. A non pro-2nd Amendment President has no place in vetoing a ccw bill if the people overwhelmingly support it. If the position/bill does not violate the Constitution and the people support it, the executive needs to sign it, regardless of what his personal feelings are.
 
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Completely disagree. One should govern based on how the people lean on a specific issue. That's the job. A non pro-2nd Amendment President has no place in vetoing a ccw bill if the people overwhelmingly support it. If the position/bill does not violate the Constitution and the people support it, the executive needs to sign it, regardless of what his personal feelings are.



so if the "people" decided that we overwhelmingly wanted to force all able bodied midgets to wrassle for the stated pride....... We elect a person to represent us, we don't expect them to change thier morals and thier views based on the whim of the people. I think christie, by taking this to a vote is doing the smartest thing for the state, his constituents, and even the gay community, all while maintaining his personal moral convictions.,
 
Actually, it is true.



Wrong again. Orientation merely determines who some one is attracted to.
Keep going. Connect the dots. If you're attracted to someone... you're more likely to engage in some sort of sexual relationship with that person... the nature of the sexual relationship depends on what options are available, among other things.
 
Ah, Taylor. Haven't seen you in a while. I see you still haven't remembered all the education I provided for you when you were here, last. Your comment above is inaccurate. They key is DANGEROUS BEHAVIOR. Sexual orientation does not cause this dangerous behavior. The spread is about the dangerous behavior. Got it?
Yes it has been a while. And i can see where all that time in the echo chamber has gotten you.

I'm taking issue with the claim that sexual orientation is irrelevant. I have made no claims that it causes anything, so you can drop that.

If you're going to bother with details, at least get it right. The spread is not so much about dangerous behavior as it is about the transmission of a virus. The spread is certainly not "caused" by dangerous behavior, as I believe you claimed in a prior post, although it's strongly associated with it.
 
Not at all. If a heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple BOTH have dangerous sex, their likelihood of contracting AIDS is equivalent. You keep missing this point.
Huh??

How exactly are you defining "dangerous sex"? For equivalent sex acts where a condom is not used, the liklihood is greater for a negative outcome for the homosexual couple. To say otherwise is incredibly misleading and can only hurt that population that you wish to protect.
 
Huh??

How exactly are you defining "dangerous sex"? For equivalent sex acts where a condom is not used, the liklihood is greater for a negative outcome for the homosexual couple. To say otherwise is incredibly misleading and can only hurt that population that you wish to protect.

Wait what? You said equivilent sex act...so you're stating there's a greater liklihood of two homosexual men getting AIDS from having anal sex then there is of a man and woman having anal sex? Or that there's a greater liklihood of two homosexual women getting AIDS from having oral sex as there is of a man and woman having oral?
 
Wait what? You said equivilent sex act...so you're stating there's a greater liklihood of two homosexual men getting AIDS from having anal sex then there is of a man and woman having anal sex? Or that there's a greater liklihood of two homosexual women getting AIDS from having oral sex as there is of a man and woman having oral?
Good catch, I had been thinking of men who have sex with men, but used the general label. To answer your questions, most definitely on the first - not sure on the second, but would guess that the opposite is true - the heterosexual woman being more likely to have a negative outcome.
 
Good catch, I had been thinking of men who have sex with men, but used the general label. To answer your questions, most definitely on the first - not sure on the second, but would guess that the opposite is true - the heterosexual woman being more likely to have a negative outcome.

Could you point me to what studies have shown that unprotected anal sex with a man who has aids is somehow more likely to cause someone to contract aids then having anal sex with a woman who has aids? (or have the person that is penetrating be the aids carrier) Cause I've seen absolutely nothing that suggests that to be the case. Actually, FOR that to be the case it'd have to mean that somehow genetically homosexuals are more apt naturally to get AIDS then heterosexuals and thus that would mean that there is some genetic proof of homosexulaity.

Or are you suggesting something else and I"m not understanding you?
 
Could you point me to what studies have shown that unprotected anal sex with a man who has aids is somehow more likely to cause someone to contract aids then having anal sex with a woman who has aids? (or have the person that is penetrating be the aids carrier) Cause I've seen absolutely nothing that suggests that to be the case. Actually, FOR that to be the case it'd have to mean that somehow genetically homosexuals are more apt naturally to get AIDS then heterosexuals and thus that would mean that there is some genetic proof of homosexulaity.

Or are you suggesting something else and I"m not understanding you?
No, I'm not commenting on that either way. The primary factor making unprotected sex between men more dangerous is that the disease is much, much more prevalent in that community. In that risk group, HIV affects 1 in 10 men, 1 in 5 in some cities. A guy who has a one night stand is much, much more likely to contract the virus than a guy who has the same sort of sex with a random woman.
 
Gotcha. So you're going with the idea of it being more likely to end up being with someone who has the disease rather than any inherent heightened ability to contract it.

IE, if ALL factors were equal except for in one instance its two guys and in one instance its a guy and a girl, then there'd be no larger chance that one would contract aids than the other. However, if adjusting for the percentages of the population in the various communities that have the disease, then the man/man couple would have a higher likelihood. At the same time, because HIV is found in a larger percentage of men then women, there's a fair chance two homosexual women would have a smaller chance if adjusted for percentages of the population in the community.

Okay, I can see where you're going with that.
 
For which part?

In Africa, there have been many tribes that allow women to marry other women and use a man from outside the marriage to father children that the women raise together.

Now I know why I had never heard of it, the whole lets pretend that Sub-Sahara Africa has actually been culturally or scientificly significant to the world or that there where any "great civilizations" there that were the basis or foundation for future civilizations, movement didn't start until after I graduated high school.

There has been at least one recorded case of a family in China (centuries ago) who had a wedding for the dead daughter of one family with the dead son of another family so that the families could have a legal connection to each other.

Wow, one whole case to point to. Ok, accepted that it happened, but what about other cultures?

Sparta-- Boys entered the Agoge at around age 7. When they entered puberty, around age 12, they entered into a ritualized form sexual relationships with older students and instructors (yes, those students and instructors were also male), at 20, they joined fighting clubs (messes) and were again encouraged to have relations with other members. However, Sparta never recognized any of those relationships as marriage, at 30 they became full citizens and were allowed to marry so that they would produce an heir and sons for Sparta.

Japan--women were expected to produce male heirs in marriage. For royal families, at least, don't really know about the common people, a woman could be "divorced" for failure to produce a male child and the man could then choose another woman who could produce an heir.

Catholic teachings that governed Europe and European societies--Sex outside of Marriage was a sin and prohibited (not that people didn't do it, just that the Church and in some cases, the law since many, perhaps most laws came down from the Church, not just the local King,ets. said it was wrong) Sex was also not to be engaged in for pleasure, only for procreation. Failure to consumate was grounds for Anulment. Putting all three of these teachings together, Sex is for Procreation, sex is inescapably linked to Marriage.

Many, perhaps most Middle Eastern cultures did not recognise homosexual marriage, however, some (Ayatollah Khomeini reportedly being one) believed that your male friends were for pleasure, women were for making babies. Again, a longstanding and wellknown influential cultural that directly linked marriage to procreation. There are some Muslims today who try to discourage and even stop this longtime tradition about marriage and homosexuality. So that evidence would indicate that the practice was derived from pre-Muslim middle-eastern culture. I am not positive about the exact teachings of each, but this seems to be one of the big differences between Sunni and Shia (Shi'ite).


Marriage has been about family ties more than any other thing in history. Procreation is a secondary, like many other things such as business arrangements, ending family feuds, or joining countries/kingdoms.

Undoubtedly this has been true for the Aristocracy in many countries, but only to the Aristocracy and not the common people or common culture. Peasant farmers and other laborers really did not concern themself's with "Family ties", I am sure there are some exceptions, but then we are discussing the overall view, not a few exceptions.

What does all of this have to do with "modern" marriage, simple, the modern incarnation is evolved and handed down from previous generations. "Conservatives" in this case are conservative about changes and only adopt those changes slowly, "Liberals" are liberal about making changes. And why should we be concerned, simple, every previous "Democratic" culture, the ones we based ours on anyways, experienced "Moral Decay" and the break down of Marriage right before their fall. Does this "Moral Decay" and break down of marriage cause the collapse? That is a whole other topic for debate and there is a plethora of views on that subject, but, it cannot be denied that the decay and breakdown of marriage traditions did occurr, especially in Greece and the Roman Republic (Later, the Roman Empire after Julius Ceasar ceased power) Augustus Ceasar difinitly fought against that decay, he imprissoned his own daughter on a remote island for committing adultry.

So, other Democracies experienced "Moral Decay" and breakdown of traditional marriage just prior to their collapse, The US today started off as a Democracy and is currently seeing the same "Moral Decay" and breakdown of traditional marriage, not hard to see why many could conclude that America is about to fall unless we re-establish "Moral Decency" and traditional marriage. And this "Decay" is also coming at a time when we see our Economic strength declining, our military strength being stipped away and the country is mounting up indecent amounts of debt that we may never be able to repay without creating an unsustainable tax burden on our productive citizens. It would seem that that writing is on the wall and we are quickly heading towards collapse unless we change things.

5 states, Arizona, Illinois, Indiana, Utah, and Wisconsin, only allow first cousins to be legally married if they cannot procreate. Why let them marry at all if marriage is about procreation and they cannot be able to do so in order to legally marry?

Interesting, prior to this, I only knew of Mississippi allowing first cousins to marry, guess it is the only state that allows it and doesn't put a restriction on it.
 
Gotcha. So you're going with the idea of it being more likely to end up being with someone who has the disease rather than any inherent heightened ability to contract it.
Yes, given the higher incidence in that population, there is a higher risk associated with each encounter. "Dangerous" sex is much more dangerous among men who have sex with men, than men who do not.

IE, if ALL factors were equal except for in one instance its two guys and in one instance its a guy and a girl, then there'd be no larger chance that one would contract aids than the other.
Agree - if it were possible to conduct (the extremely unethical) controlled experiment, I think that's probably close to what you would find (you might even find a slightly higher chance among women, given their smaller anatomy).
 
so if the "people" decided that we overwhelmingly wanted to force all able bodied midgets to wrassle for the stated pride....... We elect a person to represent us, we don't expect them to change thier morals and thier views based on the whim of the people. I think christie, by taking this to a vote is doing the smartest thing for the state, his constituents, and even the gay community, all while maintaining his personal moral convictions.,

Your example does not apply. It would not be Constitutional to do that. Try again.

And Christie's moral convictions are irrelevant. He isn't paid to legislate HIS moral convictions.
 
Your example does not apply. It would not be Constitutional to do that. Try again.

And Christie's moral convictions are irrelevant. He isn't paid to legislate HIS moral convictions.

He is however paid to legislate based on his moral convictions.

Welcome to the world of a representitives republic, not a direct democracy. There is no inherent requirement that Christie take into consideration the desire of all his constituents...hell, there's no inherent requirement he takes into consideration the desires of ANY of his constitutents. He was voted in to represent them based on what he feels the right thing to do in a given situation is. If that is following his moral convictions, he absolutely is paid to do that.
 
Yes it has been a while. And i can see where all that time in the echo chamber has gotten you.

Just remember your style and positions. Doesn't require anything new.

I'm taking issue with the claim that sexual orientation is irrelevant. I have made no claims that it causes anything, so you can drop that.

Excellent. So you might want to stop including any type of sexual orientation in these kinds of discussions since you are now aware that it doesn't cause anything.

If you're going to bother with details, at least get it right. The spread is not so much about dangerous behavior as it is about the transmission of a virus. The spread is certainly not "caused" by dangerous behavior, as I believe you claimed in a prior post, although it's strongly associated with it.

Perhaps YOU might want to pay attention to details. Here is EXACTLY what I said: "The spread is about the dangerous behavior." I do not see the word "cause" in this sentence. Not every time someone participates in dangerous sexual behavior will they get AIDS. It does, however significantly increase their chances, and it is more likely than if they do NOT engage in dangerous sexual behavior.
 
Huh??

How exactly are you defining "dangerous sex"? For equivalent sex acts where a condom is not used, the liklihood is greater for a negative outcome for the homosexual couple. To say otherwise is incredibly misleading and can only hurt that population that you wish to protect.

Equivalent acts equals equivalent potential outcomes.
 
He is however paid to legislate based on his moral convictions.

No, he's not.

Welcome to the world of a representitives republic, not a direct democracy. There is no inherent requirement that Christie take into consideration the desire of all his constituents...hell, there's no inherent requirement he takes into consideration the desires of ANY of his constitutents. He was voted in to represent them based on what he feels the right thing to do in a given situation is. If that is following his moral convictions, he absolutely is paid to do that.

You are correct. He's doesn't have to take into consideration ANY of his constituents. But he is paid to represent the people. Whether he does so or not is his decision and the voters decision come election time.
 
No, he's not.

He's paid to legislate based on his best judgement. If his judgement is made up based on his moral convictions then yes, he is.

You are correct. He's doesn't have to take into consideration ANY of his constituents. But he is paid to represent the people. Whether he does so or not is his decision and the voters decision come election time.

Absolutely. That is the wonders of the representitive republic. The thing you're doing however is assuming that those who voted for him didn't do so with the hope and/or belief that his judgements would tempered by his moral convictions.
 
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