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Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

AIDS started in the country in the Gay community and crossed over into the straight community by bisexuals........Gays are still the most prone to get AIDS though because of their lifestyle.

Please, research before saying things like this. AIDS is beleived to have started in this country through a single Haitian immigrant, and spread through the gay male community, those who shared needles, and through hospitals. People who engage in unprotected anal sex are more prone to get AIDS, regardless of orientation. Those who engage in promiscuous sex are more likely to get AIDS, regardless of orientation. Facts are good.
 
I agree ;) And because society makes up marriage they also have the right to define or change it.

Not according to the 14th Amendment and the SCOTUS, they don't. Otherwise we would still have interracial marriage.

Society could not decide tomorrow that atheists could not get married, legally, without a Constitutional Amendment (federal) declaring that atheists can not legally get married. The same should apply to same sex couples.
 
The needle on my meter on this issue usually hangs out around don't give a crap or lower. Sometimes it goes up with a question like now;

What if no one had the piece of paper saying they were married or if a government didn't recognize any marriage, what changes between the couples that are or want to get married?

Those couples would have to get a lot of legal paperwork done, which would cost a lot of money. They would also very likely get screwed over by employers and insurance companies who now get to make a determination of who they want to include in benefits.

And any couples that were military or got bennies from the government based on marriage would have some big issues regarding housing, BAH, medical, dental, base access, ID cards, and about 100 more things that the military and other the government gives legal spouses of employees or for being legally married.
 
Applause to Governor Christie!!!!

Why? To answer that I have to express my veiw on "what is marriage". Some form Marriage of course goes back to pre-writing (pre-Biblical also) times and has arrisen in almost all societies no matter how remote or seperated. Incest is bad genetically, somehow ancient peoples found this out and most societies up to the present have had some sort of taboo about incest (OK, Pharoahs, Roman Emporers, and European Royalty thought it was ok because they also thought that they had special bloodlines and normal rules shouldn't apply to them). Most, if not all forms of marriage historiclly have been based around what woman was reproducing with what man and whose kids are those. For men, it gave them "ownership" of a dedicated sexual partner(s), for women it gave them a dedicated provider and protecter theoretically giving her a ensured means of support for her and her children. The core of marriage is to identify blood lines and legalise some form of support for women and children. It has, mostly, only been the last 30-40 years that women have started to move away from this support structure.

The modern US version of marriage has mainly been around for less than a century (it actually changes over time). The modern version primarily altered things like providing insurance and benefits to a wife through her husband. Our current manifestation still has those ideas which are largely based upon the fact that women needed that linking because they did not, normally, go out into the job market; instead, they stayed at home, cared for and nurtured their children. (interesting side note: Most of our social/political problems we face increased at a lagtime of about 18 years from a similiar increase of single mothers and women working outside the home. (Topic for another thread there)). Now, many, if not the majority of wifes do work outside the home and sometimes are the provider of the benefits. The whole concept of marriage giving a wife (normally, sometimes husband) benefits derived from being married was based upon the fact that women are the ones who are limited and for a time, unable to actually work. Also, they were historically expected to be the one to nuture and educate the children (hey, their mammary glands produce milk for infants, a man's don't and formula is a rather modern invention).

So now we come to homosexual marriage. Homosexuals feel they are not being treated equally because their "life partner" cannot receive the benefits of a spouse and that partnership is not socially or legally recognised. But, is this really true? I don't think so. Since marriage and benefits linked to marriage are centered around the fact that married couples reproduce and children must be cared for, there is no reason for homosexuals to be married. Homosexual conduct does not lead to reproduction and therefore there is no need for one partner to remain at home and care for children. The only reason for homosexual couples to get marred would be so that the lazy, non-working or under-employed partner can gain benefits by forcing employers to pay for additional benefits. There is absolutely no reason this should be necessary, there are no children, so both partners can and should work outside the home and receive benefits based upon that employment. Some of you may point out that some homosexuals come out late and may have already had children from a normal relationship, not really a problem, since I consider homosexualality to be a mental disorder, children should never remain in the primary custody of the aberrated parent, they should always go to the normal parent.

Except those benefits are not linked to procreation, as has been shown numerous times. IF they were, old people, particularly women past menopause, would not be allowed to marry. Infertile men and women would not be allowed to marry. There would not be 5 states that deny legal marriage to certain couples if they can procreate.

In fact, there is no question on any marriage license in the US that asks about a couples' ability or even desire to ever raise children, let alone make them with each other.
 
hose puckey, you ever hear of AIDS????

Wow, thank you for completely dismissing anything that you could possibly bring to the table regarding this topic. The fact that anyone could still believe that Reagan-era bull**** is just astounding to me.
 
Those couples would have to get a lot of legal paperwork done, which would cost a lot of money. They would also very likely get screwed over by employers and insurance companies who now get to make a determination of who they want to include in benefits.

And any couples that were military or got bennies from the government based on marriage would have some big issues regarding housing, BAH, medical, dental, base access, ID cards, and about 100 more things that the military and other the government gives legal spouses of employees or for being legally married.

So what your saying is with no special treatment everyone would get equally screwed?
 
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So what your saying is with no special treatment everyone would get equally screwed?

Yes, something not in the government's best interest. it is highly doubtful that getting rid of legal marriage or a contract very close to it is likely to happen any time soon.
 
Yes, something not in the government's best interest. it is highly doubtful that getting rid of legal marriage or a contract very close to it is likely to happen any time soon.

It is not that I am say ditch the current system. I was just more wondering if the love or commitment would change between the couple, but that didn't really seem to get mentioned. All I seen mentioned that if the couple wants to have special treatment without getting wrapped up in a sea of legal paper work and other expenses just to work around the current system of marriage, maybe it could be consolidated some how.

If I didn't have a marriage license my relationship with my spouse would stay the same. Friends would view us as a couple I would gather being that we would still introduce each other as married if the government was there to recognize the marriage or not. The underlying commitment between the couple would not be dissolved over government dis-involvement.
 
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Number 1, please provide a source for all of this mumbo jumbo you posted. If its your interpertation, then I immediately discount it.

It was taken from a variety of sources. mostly religioustolerance.com. I've lost the original links, but if need be, I can relocate them. Regardless, the Bible is ALL about interpretation. Your interpretation is no better or valid than mine, and vice versa.

Number 2, you ignored other verses that prove your entire post wrong.
"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." (Romans 1:26-27).
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I'm Jewish. The NT does not interest me.
 
We disagree, and that's fine. I believe the Bible is the basis for right and wrong because God says it is. I believe this is one of those arguments you and I could both waste days posting back and forth about or just agree to disagree. I would rather do the latter. You?

I also believe the Bible is the basis for right and wrong because God says it is. But what I hear God saying is "right" or "wrong" is different than what you hear.
 
Applause to Governor Christie!!!!

Why? To answer that I have to express my veiw on "what is marriage". Some form Marriage of course goes back to pre-writing (pre-Biblical also) times and has arrisen in almost all societies no matter how remote or seperated. Incest is bad genetically, somehow ancient peoples found this out and most societies up to the present have had some sort of taboo about incest (OK, Pharoahs, Roman Emporers, and European Royalty thought it was ok because they also thought that they had special bloodlines and normal rules shouldn't apply to them). Most, if not all forms of marriage historiclly have been based around what woman was reproducing with what man and whose kids are those. For men, it gave them "ownership" of a dedicated sexual partner(s), for women it gave them a dedicated provider and protecter theoretically giving her a ensured means of support for her and her children. The core of marriage is to identify blood lines and legalise some form of support for women and children. It has, mostly, only been the last 30-40 years that women have started to move away from this support structure.

The modern US version of marriage has mainly been around for less than a century (it actually changes over time). The modern version primarily altered things like providing insurance and benefits to a wife through her husband. Our current manifestation still has those ideas which are largely based upon the fact that women needed that linking because they did not, normally, go out into the job market; instead, they stayed at home, cared for and nurtured their children. (interesting side note: Most of our social/political problems we face increased at a lagtime of about 18 years from a similiar increase of single mothers and women working outside the home. (Topic for another thread there)). Now, many, if not the majority of wifes do work outside the home and sometimes are the provider of the benefits. The whole concept of marriage giving a wife (normally, sometimes husband) benefits derived from being married was based upon the fact that women are the ones who are limited and for a time, unable to actually work. Also, they were historically expected to be the one to nuture and educate the children (hey, their mammary glands produce milk for infants, a man's don't and formula is a rather modern invention).

So now we come to homosexual marriage. Homosexuals feel they are not being treated equally because their "life partner" cannot receive the benefits of a spouse and that partnership is not socially or legally recognised. But, is this really true? I don't think so. Since marriage and benefits linked to marriage are centered around the fact that married couples reproduce and children must be cared for, there is no reason for homosexuals to be married. Homosexual conduct does not lead to reproduction and therefore there is no need for one partner to remain at home and care for children. The only reason for homosexual couples to get marred would be so that the lazy, non-working or under-employed partner can gain benefits by forcing employers to pay for additional benefits. There is absolutely no reason this should be necessary, there are no children, so both partners can and should work outside the home and receive benefits based upon that employment. Some of you may point out that some homosexuals come out late and may have already had children from a normal relationship, not really a problem, since I consider homosexualality to be a mental disorder, children should never remain in the primary custody of the aberrated parent, they should always go to the normal parent.

Too much ignorance and inaccuracy in this post for it to even be taken seriously.
 
Never tried to **** with anyone's life. I didn't tell them to be gay, they chose to. Being gay equals no chance of creating a life.

The choice of being gay is equal to the choice of being straight. Just thought I'd clear that up for you.
 
hose puckey, you ever hear of AIDS????

And you do understand that AIDS is not caused by homosexuality, NP. NP... seriously... have you not learned anything in all the years you've been reading my posts?
 
It is not that I am say ditch the current system. I was just more wondering if the love or commitment would change between the couple, but that didn't really seem to get mentioned. All I seen mentioned that if the couple wants to have special treatment without getting wrapped up in a sea of legal paper work and other expenses just to work around the current system of marriage, maybe it could be consolidated some how.

If I didn't have a marriage license my relationship with my spouse would stay the same. Friends would view us as a couple I would gather being that we would still introduce each other as married if the government was there to recognize the marriage or not. The underlying commitment between the couple would not be dissolved over government dis-involvement.

The marriage license is the only current way an adult has of becoming a legal relative of another adult when blood isn't close enough. It doesn't matter if there is love. Maybe it should, and it is certainly ideal, but you can't measure love. The best we can do is take people's word on it when it comes to the love part. Although, honestly, love has only been an aspect of marriage going in for maybe the last hundred years. It is the ideal of modern society that love be the basis of marriage (I happen to agree that this is a good thing), but it isn't exactly necessary to live up to the legal/financial obligations of legal marriage.
 
Except those benefits are not linked to procreation, as has been shown numerous times. IF they were, old people, particularly women past menopause, would not be allowed to marry. Infertile men and women would not be allowed to marry. There would not be 5 states that deny legal marriage to certain couples if they can procreate.

In fact, there is no question on any marriage license in the US that asks about a couples' ability or even desire to ever raise children, let alone make them with each other.

I never said the benefits were linked to procreation, I said they are linked to marriage and the creation and ideas behind the institution of marriage are linked to procreation. Do they apply in all cases? No. Marriage has been around a very long time, but things like fertility testing (really, how many couples actually do this prior to marriage and failure to conceive?) and large numbers of post-menopausal women (in 1900, the average life expectancy in the US was around 30 yrs of age and though I have seen no specific numbers, women dying during child birth or due to complications from childbirth was very common) are only historically recent things. Failure to consumate is still a condition for annulment in many states, again linking sex to marriage and of course sex is very closely related to procreation, i.e. the reason that sex exists. Yes, there is a thing called contraception, but keep in mind that just like longer life expectancies, low child mortality, reduced number of women dying with complications from childbirth, etc, they have only been around since the mid to late 20th century while marriage, laws governing it and attitudes towards it have existed since pre-recorded history.

The whole homosexual marriage subject is very, very recent and due to a mentally deviant sector of our society trying to make their mental disorder appear normal and not an aberration of a normal human instinct.
 
Too much ignorance and inaccuracy in this post for it to even be taken seriously.

In your opinion.

I do grant that previous post is a very short generalized overveiw, my posts have a tendency to be long and many people here do not read really long posts, so I did not present a dissertation of theory, indepth annalysis of data or the complete data set used for the formulation of theories. If you wish, I would be more than happy to reply with my reasoning and "evidence" for my point of veiw on any point you believe is not "accurate".

As written, your response is way too general and gives neither me nor anyone else any useful information, only your opinion, which I, and probably others, do not take as a 100% accurate law of nature.
 
I never said the benefits were linked to procreation, I said they are linked to marriage and the creation and ideas behind the institution of marriage are linked to procreation. Do they apply in all cases? No. Marriage has been around a very long time, but things like fertility testing (really, how many couples actually do this prior to marriage and failure to conceive?) and large numbers of post-menopausal women (in 1900, the average life expectancy in the US was around 30 yrs of age and though I have seen no specific numbers, women dying during child birth or due to complications from childbirth was very common) are only historically recent things. Failure to consumate is still a condition for annulment in many states, again linking sex to marriage and of course sex is very closely related to procreation, i.e. the reason that sex exists. Yes, there is a thing called contraception, but keep in mind that just like longer life expectancies, low child mortality, reduced number of women dying with complications from childbirth, etc, they have only been around since the mid to late 20th century while marriage, laws governing it and attitudes towards it have existed since pre-recorded history.

The whole homosexual marriage subject is very, very recent and due to a mentally deviant sector of our society trying to make their mental disorder appear normal and not an aberration of a normal human instinct.

First, it doesn't make two bits of difference what marriage was in the past. Marriage was many things in the past, and it was certainly not always about procreation. The main thing marriage has always been about is family ties. In some places, it was even ok for parents to marry two deceased children to each other just so they could make the legal bond between their families.

Family ties is the basis for marriage, everything else, including procreation, is extra.

And same sex marriage is not that recent of a phenomenon. Some people just believe it is. There have been several cases in recorded history where same sex marriages were legal. And much of history wasn't actually recorded, so God only knows how many more cases there were.

Reality is we live in the here and now, when we do have tests to determine if people can procreate individually or with each other. Women live decades past menopause and we know that women past menopause cannot procreate without help.

Also, you forgot to address the fact that 5 states will not allow certain couples to legally marry if they can procreate. That alone means that at least those states and the federal government do not consider procreation an important aspect in legal marriage (the federal government is included because all those marriages are legally recognized by the federal government).

Plus, we have studies (because we study everything) that say that marriage is good for society in ways far greater than procreation. Marriage encourages people to be more responsible. Marriage means that society has someone else to hold responsible for important end-of-life decisions and the financial responsibilities that go with those decisions.
 
In your opinion.

I do grant that previous post is a very short generalized overveiw, my posts have a tendency to be long and many people here do not read really long posts, so I did not present a dissertation of theory, indepth annalysis of data or the complete data set used for the formulation of theories. If you wish, I would be more than happy to reply with my reasoning and "evidence" for my point of veiw on any point you believe is not "accurate".

As written, your response is way too general and gives neither me nor anyone else any useful information, only your opinion, which I, and probably others, do not take as a 100% accurate law of nature.

No, completely factual. Any post that implies, infers, or states that homosexuality is a mental disorder is reflective of the ignorance of the poster. Any post that implies, infers, or states that children do better with heterosexuals than homosexuals is reflective of the ignorance of the poster. Please educate yourself on these issues. Perhaps THEN your post might have some validity to be taken seriously.
 
And you do understand that AIDS is not caused by homosexuality, NP. NP... seriously... have you not learned anything in all the years you've been reading my posts?

It makes me sad that there could be folks out here that still think of AIDS as "the gay disease". Most of the people dying from it are married straight females or black single females. That is based on the latest I read. But it pisses me off that some still use the AIDS thing to bash gay people and spread rumors that it is the gay disease. I thought we had came a long way from that type of thinking:(
 
It makes me sad that there could be folks out here that still think of AIDS as "the gay disease". Most of the people dying from it are married straight females or black single females. That is based on the latest I read. But it pisses me off that some still use the AIDS thing to bash gay people and spread rumors that it is the gay disease. I thought we had came a long way from that type of thinking:(

We have. That was typical thinking during the Reagan era. Some people just refuse to evolve with the rest of us.
 
Come on people it does not matter what side of the issue your on but AIDS was originally a gay disease in this country....... Its true now that both straights and gays get it now and that was caused by mostly bi sexual and dirty needles.

I guess what bothers me more then anything else is every year thousands of women who did nothing wrong die from breast cancer which is much more then the fatality rate from AIDS at this time but because of huge lobbyists for AIDS research there is huge gov money going to it and not nearly that much going to breast cancer research. A lot of people that catch AIDS are in the high risk area where as the women that get breast cancer do nothing to get it..........

I wish some of the funds that go to AIDS research would be diverted to breast cancer research........I guess I feel so strongly about it is because I had a niece who was 26 years old die from breast cancer...
 
And you do understand that AIDS is not caused by homosexuality, NP. NP... seriously... have you not learned anything in all the years you've been reading my posts?

It depends how you look at it CC As I just posted AIDS started in this country in the gay community probably in the bath houses of the peoples republic of SF.....That is a fact and I did not make it up...........No matter how much the gay community wants as to forget that fact we won't..........Its to close to home for some people...........
 
It depends how you look at it CC As I just posted AIDS started in this country in the gay community probably in the bath houses of the peoples republic of SF.....That is a fact and I did not make it up...........No matter how much the gay community wants as to forget that fact we won't..........Its to close to home for some people...........

It didn't start in the gay community, it just hit it first. Big difference, it's not like homosexual sex acts is what cultivated this disease. Also it affected straight people right around the same time also, that was just wasn't talked about as much. But AIDS can affect anyone who practices unsafe sex. Period.
 
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