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Thread: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Could you point me to what studies have shown that unprotected anal sex with a man who has aids is somehow more likely to cause someone to contract aids then having anal sex with a woman who has aids? (or have the person that is penetrating be the aids carrier) Cause I've seen absolutely nothing that suggests that to be the case. Actually, FOR that to be the case it'd have to mean that somehow genetically homosexuals are more apt naturally to get AIDS then heterosexuals and thus that would mean that there is some genetic proof of homosexulaity.

    Or are you suggesting something else and I"m not understanding you?
    No, I'm not commenting on that either way. The primary factor making unprotected sex between men more dangerous is that the disease is much, much more prevalent in that community. In that risk group, HIV affects 1 in 10 men, 1 in 5 in some cities. A guy who has a one night stand is much, much more likely to contract the virus than a guy who has the same sort of sex with a random woman.

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Gotcha. So you're going with the idea of it being more likely to end up being with someone who has the disease rather than any inherent heightened ability to contract it.

    IE, if ALL factors were equal except for in one instance its two guys and in one instance its a guy and a girl, then there'd be no larger chance that one would contract aids than the other. However, if adjusting for the percentages of the population in the various communities that have the disease, then the man/man couple would have a higher likelihood. At the same time, because HIV is found in a larger percentage of men then women, there's a fair chance two homosexual women would have a smaller chance if adjusted for percentages of the population in the community.

    Okay, I can see where you're going with that.

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    For which part?

    In Africa, there have been many tribes that allow women to marry other women and use a man from outside the marriage to father children that the women raise together.
    Now I know why I had never heard of it, the whole lets pretend that Sub-Sahara Africa has actually been culturally or scientificly significant to the world or that there where any "great civilizations" there that were the basis or foundation for future civilizations, movement didn't start until after I graduated high school.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There has been at least one recorded case of a family in China (centuries ago) who had a wedding for the dead daughter of one family with the dead son of another family so that the families could have a legal connection to each other.
    Wow, one whole case to point to. Ok, accepted that it happened, but what about other cultures?

    Sparta-- Boys entered the Agoge at around age 7. When they entered puberty, around age 12, they entered into a ritualized form sexual relationships with older students and instructors (yes, those students and instructors were also male), at 20, they joined fighting clubs (messes) and were again encouraged to have relations with other members. However, Sparta never recognized any of those relationships as marriage, at 30 they became full citizens and were allowed to marry so that they would produce an heir and sons for Sparta.

    Japan--women were expected to produce male heirs in marriage. For royal families, at least, don't really know about the common people, a woman could be "divorced" for failure to produce a male child and the man could then choose another woman who could produce an heir.

    Catholic teachings that governed Europe and European societies--Sex outside of Marriage was a sin and prohibited (not that people didn't do it, just that the Church and in some cases, the law since many, perhaps most laws came down from the Church, not just the local King,ets. said it was wrong) Sex was also not to be engaged in for pleasure, only for procreation. Failure to consumate was grounds for Anulment. Putting all three of these teachings together, Sex is for Procreation, sex is inescapably linked to Marriage.

    Many, perhaps most Middle Eastern cultures did not recognise homosexual marriage, however, some (Ayatollah Khomeini reportedly being one) believed that your male friends were for pleasure, women were for making babies. Again, a longstanding and wellknown influential cultural that directly linked marriage to procreation. There are some Muslims today who try to discourage and even stop this longtime tradition about marriage and homosexuality. So that evidence would indicate that the practice was derived from pre-Muslim middle-eastern culture. I am not positive about the exact teachings of each, but this seems to be one of the big differences between Sunni and Shia (Shi'ite).


    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Marriage has been about family ties more than any other thing in history. Procreation is a secondary, like many other things such as business arrangements, ending family feuds, or joining countries/kingdoms.
    Undoubtedly this has been true for the Aristocracy in many countries, but only to the Aristocracy and not the common people or common culture. Peasant farmers and other laborers really did not concern themself's with "Family ties", I am sure there are some exceptions, but then we are discussing the overall view, not a few exceptions.

    What does all of this have to do with "modern" marriage, simple, the modern incarnation is evolved and handed down from previous generations. "Conservatives" in this case are conservative about changes and only adopt those changes slowly, "Liberals" are liberal about making changes. And why should we be concerned, simple, every previous "Democratic" culture, the ones we based ours on anyways, experienced "Moral Decay" and the break down of Marriage right before their fall. Does this "Moral Decay" and break down of marriage cause the collapse? That is a whole other topic for debate and there is a plethora of views on that subject, but, it cannot be denied that the decay and breakdown of marriage traditions did occurr, especially in Greece and the Roman Republic (Later, the Roman Empire after Julius Ceasar ceased power) Augustus Ceasar difinitly fought against that decay, he imprissoned his own daughter on a remote island for committing adultry.

    So, other Democracies experienced "Moral Decay" and breakdown of traditional marriage just prior to their collapse, The US today started off as a Democracy and is currently seeing the same "Moral Decay" and breakdown of traditional marriage, not hard to see why many could conclude that America is about to fall unless we re-establish "Moral Decency" and traditional marriage. And this "Decay" is also coming at a time when we see our Economic strength declining, our military strength being stipped away and the country is mounting up indecent amounts of debt that we may never be able to repay without creating an unsustainable tax burden on our productive citizens. It would seem that that writing is on the wall and we are quickly heading towards collapse unless we change things.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    5 states, Arizona, Illinois, Indiana, Utah, and Wisconsin, only allow first cousins to be legally married if they cannot procreate. Why let them marry at all if marriage is about procreation and they cannot be able to do so in order to legally marry?
    Interesting, prior to this, I only knew of Mississippi allowing first cousins to marry, guess it is the only state that allows it and doesn't put a restriction on it.

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Gotcha. So you're going with the idea of it being more likely to end up being with someone who has the disease rather than any inherent heightened ability to contract it.
    Yes, given the higher incidence in that population, there is a higher risk associated with each encounter. "Dangerous" sex is much more dangerous among men who have sex with men, than men who do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    IE, if ALL factors were equal except for in one instance its two guys and in one instance its a guy and a girl, then there'd be no larger chance that one would contract aids than the other.
    Agree - if it were possible to conduct (the extremely unethical) controlled experiment, I think that's probably close to what you would find (you might even find a slightly higher chance among women, given their smaller anatomy).

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    so if the "people" decided that we overwhelmingly wanted to force all able bodied midgets to wrassle for the stated pride....... We elect a person to represent us, we don't expect them to change thier morals and thier views based on the whim of the people. I think christie, by taking this to a vote is doing the smartest thing for the state, his constituents, and even the gay community, all while maintaining his personal moral convictions.,
    Your example does not apply. It would not be Constitutional to do that. Try again.

    And Christie's moral convictions are irrelevant. He isn't paid to legislate HIS moral convictions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Your example does not apply. It would not be Constitutional to do that. Try again.

    And Christie's moral convictions are irrelevant. He isn't paid to legislate HIS moral convictions.
    He is however paid to legislate based on his moral convictions.

    Welcome to the world of a representitives republic, not a direct democracy. There is no inherent requirement that Christie take into consideration the desire of all his constituents...hell, there's no inherent requirement he takes into consideration the desires of ANY of his constitutents. He was voted in to represent them based on what he feels the right thing to do in a given situation is. If that is following his moral convictions, he absolutely is paid to do that.

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Yes it has been a while. And i can see where all that time in the echo chamber has gotten you.
    Just remember your style and positions. Doesn't require anything new.

    I'm taking issue with the claim that sexual orientation is irrelevant. I have made no claims that it causes anything, so you can drop that.
    Excellent. So you might want to stop including any type of sexual orientation in these kinds of discussions since you are now aware that it doesn't cause anything.

    If you're going to bother with details, at least get it right. The spread is not so much about dangerous behavior as it is about the transmission of a virus. The spread is certainly not "caused" by dangerous behavior, as I believe you claimed in a prior post, although it's strongly associated with it.
    Perhaps YOU might want to pay attention to details. Here is EXACTLY what I said: "The spread is about the dangerous behavior." I do not see the word "cause" in this sentence. Not every time someone participates in dangerous sexual behavior will they get AIDS. It does, however significantly increase their chances, and it is more likely than if they do NOT engage in dangerous sexual behavior.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #448
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Huh??

    How exactly are you defining "dangerous sex"? For equivalent sex acts where a condom is not used, the liklihood is greater for a negative outcome for the homosexual couple. To say otherwise is incredibly misleading and can only hurt that population that you wish to protect.
    Equivalent acts equals equivalent potential outcomes.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #449
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    He is however paid to legislate based on his moral convictions.
    No, he's not.

    Welcome to the world of a representitives republic, not a direct democracy. There is no inherent requirement that Christie take into consideration the desire of all his constituents...hell, there's no inherent requirement he takes into consideration the desires of ANY of his constitutents. He was voted in to represent them based on what he feels the right thing to do in a given situation is. If that is following his moral convictions, he absolutely is paid to do that.
    You are correct. He's doesn't have to take into consideration ANY of his constituents. But he is paid to represent the people. Whether he does so or not is his decision and the voters decision come election time.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #450
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, he's not.
    He's paid to legislate based on his best judgement. If his judgement is made up based on his moral convictions then yes, he is.

    You are correct. He's doesn't have to take into consideration ANY of his constituents. But he is paid to represent the people. Whether he does so or not is his decision and the voters decision come election time.
    Absolutely. That is the wonders of the representitive republic. The thing you're doing however is assuming that those who voted for him didn't do so with the hope and/or belief that his judgements would tempered by his moral convictions.

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