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Thread: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

  1. #121
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    More to the point that in both cases these were instances where people duly elected by the people passed state laws regarding this issue. In one case, the people of the state elected both a legislature and a governor who would go along with it. In another case they elected a legislature that would go along but a governor who would veto it. In both cases these were instances of states acting upon states rights, and elected officials passing laws rather than it being determined by the court system.



    I admit, I don't know much about Washington politics...neither do you know much about New Jersey Politics. But in a general sense, its an example of states functioning in the manner they should under our constitution.
    Well even though he is a Republican Christie has turned that state around financially and he has to deal with a democrat controlled legislature.........I know that much.. I can tell you I live in Western Wa. where the enemy control everything.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Clearly states it in the Old Testament law, which we do not live under anymore. We now live under New Testament law.
    Does NOT clearly state it in the OT. Here is what the OT passages really mean when translated from the ancient Hebrew in which they were written:

    First, here is my treatment on the two Leviticus passages:

    Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
    Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."


    There are so many errors in the interpretation of these passages. One has to understand the section of the Torah that they were taken, what the context was, and the translations of the actual words. These passages cannot stand by themselves and mean what they were supposed to mean.

    The section of the Torah where these passages were taken refers to codes of holiness and purity. It describes ways that God wants the Hebrews to be different from the Pagans. The passages that surround these two include passages about bestiality and incest, other unclean/unholy acts that were performed by Pagans. Now, we must first look at the word "abomination". This is taken from the Hebrew word "to'ebah". The actual translation of this is NOT abomination, but ritually unclean, something that fits perfectly with the codes of that section of the Bible. So, we now have it not an abomination, but just something that is ritually unclean.

    Next, since this passage is included in the codes of holiness section, it refers to acts that Pagans do, that God wants the Hebrews to separate from. One of these acts is engaging in anal sex with male prostitutes. Now, even if we look at the issue, globally, Hebrew translations refer to anal sex acts; no mention of homosexual orientation or homosexual relationships are mentioned. At all.

    Now, moving on to the actual words. Since Hebrews believed that the Torah was spoken directly to Moses from God, one must wonder why the passage reads like this:
    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." If God was saying something against homosexuality in men, He would have just said this: ""Thou shalt not lie with mankind: it is abomination." Why the "as womankind" part? Think about it. A man should not lie with another man as if HE were a woman. Sexuality in the Torah is always presented as male dominant/female subservient. Hebrew scholars see this as meaning that if men have sexual relations, NEITHER shall be passive ("as womankind"). Also, since this was a norm of the time, this does not apply to today, anyway.

    So, what can we conclude from the actual Hebrew interpretations and the context of what was being discussed? Firstly, the entire section refers to holiness codes, separating the Hebrews from the Pagans. Secondly, the word "abomination" is not accurate; ritually unclean IS accurate. This eliminates any punishment. Thirdly, only anal sex, probably in the context of male prostitutes is prohibited; homosexual orientation has no mention and has no such prohibitions. Fourthly, IF homosexual behavior does occur, neither man can be the passive (woman) in the relationship. Fifthly, this only applies to ancient Hebrews. Sixthly, lesbian relationships are not mentioned at all and, therefore have no prohibitions.

    Now, there is MORE evidence that the prostitution theory holds water. Leviticus 18:3 says this: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances." God is saying that the Hebrews are NOT to behave like the Pagans (Canaanites and Egyptians). In both cultures, ritual gay sex with male prostitutes was common.

    Now, my discussion of Sodom and Gommorah:

    So everyone knows, Sodom and Gommorah was not about homosexuality at all. It was hospitality and protection. God punished those two cities because they were inhospitable, including towards his two angels that he sent. The "sodomy" that he was referring was NOT homosexuality, but was RAPE. The homosexuality misinterpretation comes from the fact that the angry mob wanted to rape (male homosexuality) the angels that visited Lot. This was a very common method of humiliation that was used at the time, especially amongst Pagans towards their enemies. During this time period, we had a patriarchal society, so, with the men in charge, humiliating and intimidating them was more effective. God's warning is that sodomy... RAPE, especially homosexual RAPE, is sinful... hence his destruction of those two cities where that practice occurred. The story says nothing about consentual homosexual behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #123
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    When that "baby" in the womb stands up and says "I want to live" similar to how gays stand up and say "I want to be married/adopt children", I'll consider these two issues equal.
    They are a living breathing entity...They feel pain and 42 million of them have been killed since Roe V Wade was passed...I believe abortions should be illegal with the exception of the health of the mother or possibly in the case of rape and incest.............Can you imagine if we had only aborted in those cases how many babies would be alive. I have read conservative estimates at 38,000,000. Think about it CC.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    They are a living breathing entity...They feel pain and 42 million of them have been killed since Roe V Wade was passed...I believe abortions should be illegal with the exception of the health of the mother or possibly in the case of rape and incest.............Can you imagine if we had only aborted in those cases how many babies would be alive. I have read conservative estimates at 38,000,000. Think about it CC.
    And we'd need all those gay couples to adopt all the ones that will be unwanted. Think about it NP.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #125
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    They are a living breathing entity...They feel pain and 42 million of them have been killed since Roe V Wade was passed...I believe abortions should be illegal with the exception of the health of the mother or possibly in the case of rape and incest.............Can you imagine if we had only aborted in those cases how many babies would be alive. I have read conservative estimates at 38,000,000. Think about it CC.
    Given what the data says about countries that make abortion illegal, the only thing that making it illegal would have accomplished is that instead of 42 million dying, it would have been 50 million dying and tens of thousands of women harmed in the process. It is pretty clear that policies criminalizing abortion and limiting contraception lead to increased rates of abortion, so why would somebody who is pro life support making it illegal? If the proposed solution actually worsens the problem, then doesn't that mean the solution is bad? Would it not be wiser to consider alternative ways to reduce abortion rates? Perhaps we should be studying counties that have very low abortion rates and finding the factors that genuinely lead to lower abortion rates instead of doing the whole, "let's make it illegal and punish people" thing that doesn't work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

  6. #126
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And we'd need all those gay couples to adopt all the ones that will be unwanted. Think about it NP.
    There are no unwanted infants CC. In fact there are waiting lists to adopt them....I have friends that waited 2 years and then gave up and adopted a cute little baby from South Korea.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Given what the data says about countries that make abortion illegal, the only thing that making it illegal would have accomplished is that instead of 42 million dying, it would have been 50 million dying and tens of thousands of women harmed in the process. It is pretty clear that policies criminalizing abortion and limiting contraception lead to increased rates of abortion, so why would somebody who is pro life support making it illegal? If the proposed solution actually worsens the problem, then doesn't that mean the solution is bad? Would it not be wiser to consider alternative ways to reduce abortion rates? Perhaps we should be studying counties that have very low abortion rates and finding the factors that genuinely lead to lower abortion rates instead of doing the whole, "let's make it illegal and punish people" thing that doesn't work.
    Did you even read my post?
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    There are no unwanted infants CC. In fact there are waiting lists to adopt them....I have friends that waited 2 years and then gave up and adopted a cute little baby from South Korea.
    This is incorrect. Infants with disabilities are often not adopted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

  9. #129
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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    This is incorrect. Infants with disabilities are often not adopted.

    Sadly most of them are aborted by Liberals before they are born....Thank God for Sarah Palin.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Chris Christie set to veto gay marriage bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Did you even read my post?
    Yes, I did read your post. Let me spell it out for you.

    Making abortion illegal would likely make abortion more common.

    That is my argument. Countries that don't allow abortion also tend to make it difficult to obtain contraception. The result is that abortions are actually increased.

    Making it illegal is a bad idea if you want to decrease the number abortions that occur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

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