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Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

Samhain said:
Your comparison is not accurate. There is no law requiring an abortion.

However, for your example, if there was a law requiring that prostate exams use a long thick metal tool, then I hate to burst your bubble but that already exists through regulation, and that power was strengthened through the insurance overhaul law.
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Unless I am mistaken, you can refuse a prostate exam, and they don't show you a picture of digested cheese burger at the end.
 
Blue_State said:
Unless I am mistaken, you can refuse a prostate exam, and they don't show you a picture of digested cheese burger at the end.
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all medical treatments are elective. None is required if you don't ask for it. Asking for the procedure binds you to accept the method of which the procedure is delivered.
 
Blue_State said:
This is a government mandate.
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No, its a government regulation when one asks for a procedure. Similar to getting a driver's license, you accept the rules and regulations of the contract you've asked to be a party to.
 
Samhain said:
all medical treatments are elective. None is required if you don't ask for it. Asking for the procedure binds you to accept the method of which the procedure is delivered.
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There is no reason to apply a government mandate to put the woman through additional mental anguish in order to perform an abortion. It is unnecessary pain and suffering being applied to the woman who wants/needs an abortion. It is completely unecessary and this government mandate is being used force a religious agenda.
 
Samhain said:
No, its a government regulation when one asks for a procedure. Similar to getting a driver's license, you accept the rules and regulations of the contract you've asked to be a party to.
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Quote from article:

The ultrasound legislation would constitute an unprecedented government mandate to insert vaginal ultrasonic probes into women as part of a state-ordered effort to dissuade them from terminating pregnancies, legislative opponents noted.
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Blue_State said:
There is no reason to apply a government mandate to put the woman through additional mental anguish in order to perform an abortion. It is unnecessary pain and suffering being applied to the woman who wants/needs an abortion. It is completely unecessary and this government mandate is being used force a religious agenda.
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Nothing is requiring the woman to view the ultrasound. The ultrasound essentially confirms that there is a vital fetus to be aborted, and if the woman chooses to, she can view it prior to having the abortion.

Its rather unobtrusive, from a mandated portion of the procedure. This makes the woman sit through an ultrasound, and doesn't have to look at anything, then sign a piece of paper that says I was offered the option to view it.
 
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Samhain said:
Nothing is requiring the woman to view the ultrasound. The ultrasound essentially confirms that there is a vital fetus to be aborted, and if the woman chooses to, she can view it prior to having the abortion.

Its rather unobtrusive, from a mandated portion of the procedure. This makes the woman sit through an ultrasound, and doesn't have to look at anything, then sign a piece of paper that says I was offered the option to view it.
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It is unnecessary. It does not improve the procedure. It is a hack trick.
 
Thunder said:
ask a woman, if she would find a government-mandated vaginal probe, to be unobtrusive.
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Ask anyone who has a procedure done at a hospital. The procedure, and all related procedures to be performed before and after said procedure, has been regulated by the government.

We've granted the government the ability to do this.
 
Blue_State said:
It is unnecessary. It does not improve the procedure. It is a hack trick.
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From an insurance and malpractice standpoint, its one more check in a doctor's favor against possible litigation. I can assure you that abortion providers in Virginia aren't going to complain about that.
 
Samhain said:
Ask anyone who has a procedure done at a hospital. The procedure, and all related procedures to be performed before and after said procedure, has been regulated by the government.

We've granted the government the ability to do this.
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WE..didn't do this.

the government of VA did this on their own, and they will regret it in November...or maybe sooner.
 
Samhain said:
Ask anyone who has a procedure done at a hospital. The procedure, and all related procedures to be performed before and after said procedure, has been regulated by the government.

We've granted the government the ability to do this.
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The government is taking away a liberty. Because they have the power to do so does not make it right.
 
Samhain said:
From an insurance and malpractice standpoint, its one more check in a doctor's favor against possible litigation. I can assure you that abortion providers in Virginia aren't going to complain about that.
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Assure away.
 
Samhain said:
From an insurance and malpractice standpoint, its one more check in a doctor's favor against possible litigation. I can assure you that abortion providers in Virginia aren't going to complain about that.
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and what should happen to women who refuse this procedure?

what should happen to doctors who refuse to perform it?
 
Thunder said:
and what should happen to women who refuse this procedure?

what should happen to doctors who refuse to perform it?
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They have the same right to refuse the procedure, as does anyone who doesn't want the additional hassle of required pre-op procedures.

Government regulation sucks, doesn't it?

And that's where this discussion should be. Does the government have the right to impose its own moral standards through regulation, or should they leave that to individuals.
 
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Samhain said:
They have the same right to refuse the procedure, as does anyone who doesn't want the additional hassle of required pre-op procedures....
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this isn't a pre-op procedure.

its a politically motivated violation of a woman's body, with no health benefits whatsoever.
 
Samhain said:
No, its a government regulation when one asks for a procedure. Similar to getting a driver's license, you accept the rules and regulations of the contract you've asked to be a party to.
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Driver's License = A government issued identification of permission to legally operate on government roadways

Abortion = A private medical procedure performed on, according to current law, a private citizens body

It's one thing for the government to mandate you purchase something to participate in a government program, its an ENTIRELY different thing to suggest the government has the right to mandate a citizen purchase a service (this ultra-sound) in order to participate in an entirely separate private purchase.

Expanding the ability of the government to mandate private citizens purchase goods and services if they seek to partake in a different goods and service establishes a horrible precedent and goes against all notions of a limited small government.
 
This is like Virginia requiring that its citizens purchase and participate in (though there's no requirement that they actually listen or pay attention to it) a class on the dangers of gun ownership prior to purchasing a firearm.

The state should not have the right to mandate that you purchase and undergo a private good or service to be able to purchase a separate private good or service.

This isn't about abortion, its about constitutionally limited government and individual freedom under the law.
 
Zyphlin said:
This is like Virginia requiring that its citizens purchase and participate in (though there's no requirement that they actually listen or pay attention to it) a class on the dangers of gun ownership prior to purchasing a firearm.

The state should not have the right to mandate that you purchase and undergo a private good or service to be able to purchase a separate private good or service.

This isn't about abortion, its about constitutionally limited government and individual freedom under the law.
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It's 100% about abortion. Let's not bull**** here shall we?
 
MrVicchio said:
It's 100% about abortion. Let's not bull**** here shall we?
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Sorry, I know you like to THINK you're some kind of magical mind reader that knows why people think or do the things they do but as is often the case with me you're absolutely wrong. Its 100% not about abortion for me.

It may very well be about abortion to others. I ABSOLUTELY see that the ONLY thing you care about this is concerned about abortion, and anything else to hell with it. And it absolutely appears to be about abortion for others who have no issues with the government mandating that people buy a good/service with regards to health care but are arguing against this because women should be able to abort if they want to (which they absolutely still would be able to do under this, so that argument on their part is invalid).

To ME however, this issue isn't about abortion at all. We've seen throughout the countries history that when you attempt to give the government more power, even for altruistic purposes, it always gobbles up that power and then seeks to expand and build upon it more and more. To me, this is about the principle of limit government and personal freedom and the fact that the government should not be having the ability to mandate a private citizen purchase/undergo a private good/service to be able to purchase/undergo a separate private good or service.

I understand and sympathize with the desires of those in MY state who wish to fight against Abortion. However, we should seek methods of combatting it that does not expand the power of government and limit the freedom of the individual.

There's a lot of proposals people put forward to government that FEEL good, that an individual may feel is the moral for people to do, or that its a "good thing". The governments purpose isn't to greatly enforce morality, isn't to make people "feel good", and isn't to do anything that feels like a "good thing". Government has a limit purpose, and that purpose should not be in mandating citizens purchase one private thing to do another private thing.
 
Maybe I missed it, but it seems to me that the lobby against these forced procedures has missed a vital avenue to challenge the law.

If you go to do something completely legal, and do not behave suspiciously in any way, a blanket requirement for the invasion of your body sounds a whole lot like a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment to me.
 
That's ****ing ridiculous.
 
Tettsuo said:
It's worse than that. They want power over women because they're feeling more and more powerless as women begin to climb in both political and financial power.
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You are so right. In addition to the original post here about transvaginal ultrasounds I found an article explaining Virginia's attempts at limiting adoption rights. So now in Virginia a woman may find that due to a personhood law she cannot use certain types of birth control, if she gets pregnant and contemplates an abortion she will be physically violated AND the if she has that child she may not be able to get it adopted. I think I know where I'm wanted -- barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

Virginia adding conscience clause to adoption laws - The Washington Post
 
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