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Thread: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Here's the definition of murder: Murder is unlawful killing, with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought is something that is done with a guilty mind... in other words it's being done on purpose. Killing with malice aforethought is the difference between sitting on your roof and shooting the mailman, vs accidently running over your mailman with your car.

    So, if you believe life begins at contraception, then abortion is murder. It's willful killing.
    There's a word there you seemed to ignored. I highlighted it for you.

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Murder, in the more philisophical meaning, is the killing of another human being for reasons other than self-defense, to protect property, to protect the health/life of an innocent person, by accident, or as a legal act of war.

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    There's a word there you seemed to ignored. I highlighted it for you.
    I read through your answer to me one more time, and I do somewhat understand your point better than my first read-through... you would be for redefining life to begin at conception, but you think that since it isn't illegal currently, we shouldn't give more power to the government by mandating an extra pre-abortive procedure.

    Who cares about the semantics of what is/isn't murder. Then it's irrelevant.

    The question I have then is how can your priorities be so screwed up. If you believe that an aborted child is a living person that ought to be entitled to all the rights of any living person... how is it more important to defend, on the STATE LEVEL nonetheless, the convenience of the mother to not have to undergo an ultrasound?

    We are talking about saving lives. That is not an emotional appeal, it's a question of priorities.

    Here's a hypothetical analogy for you. Say we lived in a screwed up country where it was perfectly legal to kill anyone under the age of five. I own a gun, I like to pop a cap in a few annoying kids every day... no biggie. It's legal.

    Would you be against Virginia implementing laws that tried to curb the rate of child murder, even if they meant a larger government?

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I read through your answer to me one more time, and I do somewhat understand your point better than my first read-through... you would be for redefining life to begin at conception, but you think that since it isn't illegal currently, we shouldn't give more power to the government by mandating an extra pre-abortive procedure.

    Who cares about the semantics of what is/isn't murder. Then it's irrelevant.

    The question I have then is how can your priorities be so screwed up. If you believe that an aborted child is a living person that ought to be entitled to all the rights of any living person... how is it more important to defend, on the STATE LEVEL nonetheless, the convenience of the mother to not have to undergo an ultrasound?

    We are talking about saving lives. That is not an emotional appeal, it's a question of priorities.

    Here's a hypothetical analogy for you. Say we lived in a screwed up country where it was perfectly legal to kill anyone under the age of five. I own a gun, I like to pop a cap in a few annoying kids every day... no biggie. It's legal.

    Would you be against Virginia implementing laws that tried to curb the rate of child murder, even if they meant a larger government?
    A hypothetical is a hypothertical. The reality is that we live in a place where abortion is legal and the government does not practice forced medical procedures (other than when they were idiotically practicing eugenics and any other illegal procedures they may have performed without telling us).'

    Regardless of your feelings on whether or not abortion is killing / murder, life begins at conception, etc... everyone should be appalled at the intrusive nature of forced transvaginal ultrasounds. They serve no medical purpose, they cost money, and what about having the government insert an object into the most private part of your body without consent sounds lika a good idea?

    Is violating a citizen in that manner a precedent you would like to set?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The question I have then is how can your priorities be so screwed up. If you believe that an aborted child is a living person that ought to be entitled to all the rights of any living person... how is it more important to defend, on the STATE LEVEL nonetheless, the convenience of the mother to not have to undergo an ultrasound?

    We are talking about saving lives. That is not an emotional appeal, it's a question of priorities.
    It is an emotional appeal.

    If I said you could assure that no child would ever be aborted again, would you give up the protection to our right to free speech, to religion, and to bare arms?

    There's been some positive movement in terms of women doing this choosing not to have an abortion (I am curious if MrV's numbers come from women who elected to have this done or were forced to. I imagine if its the former, mentality of that person largely impacts that number). That said, the precedent it states in regards to what it allows the government to do, in my mind, creates a governmental setup that over the long term would be more harmful to so many people (including those who are not aborted) that essentially you're punishing, wrongly imho because its being done in a way that government shouldn't work, tens of thousands of people in order to save some. You're depriving the rights of tens of thousands so that you can save that life.

    To me there are options, perhaps not as good but still good options, that can still work towards saving those lives that also doesn't damage the world that those lives would be born into and which doesn't take away the rights of some to save the life of another.

    This notion of "We need to give up your rights so we can save a life" is a similar argument that's used for universal health care. "Oh, but there are poor people who can't afford health care and would thus die in the streets so you should give up your rights, allow government to take over health care and mandate you use the government form or pay huge fines, and pay for it by having more of your money taxed...but its okay that we're depriving you of some of your rights because its saving some lives".

    I value that life and I appreciate that life. But you have to weigh both the benefits and harms of both sides, and you also have to step back and see if this is the only answer or if there are other answers out there that could be workable that DON'T do the kind of additional harm this one would.

    Here's a hypothetical analogy for you. Say we lived in a screwed up country where it was perfectly legal to kill anyone under the age of five. I own a gun, I like to pop a cap in a few annoying kids every day... no biggie. It's legal.
    ....alright. (First issue by the way...my ass would move out of such a country.I'd have no desire to live under such a social contract)

    Would you be against Virginia implementing laws that tried to curb the rate of child murder, even if they meant a larger government?
    Massively depends on the type of laws. I don't necessarily have issues with laws that would curb abortion...I have issues with this particular thing.

    If the method of trying to curb child murder involved not only just increasing government, but establishing that they could force us to purchase goods and services or undergo actions for primarily political reasons just to be able to spend our money or use our rights...I would likely oppose it unless there was absolutely no other way to have any positive effect what so ever on curbing such murder.

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    nvm
    123456789

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It is an emotional appeal.

    If I said you could assure that no child would ever be aborted again, would you give up the protection to our right to free speech, to religion, and to bare arms?
    Yes, of course I would. Even a life under tyranny is better than no life at all. I'm not willing to sacrifice the lives of children for my own right to free speech, religion, or arms.

    What higher purpose can we have than to do well for the next generation?

    It's a matter of ethics.

    That doesn't make being forced to buy something any less tyrannical, it's just the lesser of two evils. I would fight and die for our rights as Americans, but I would never sacrifice someone else's life, especially a child.
    Last edited by Peter Grimm; 02-16-12 at 01:50 AM.

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Yes, of course I would. Even a life under tyranny is better than no life at all. I'm not willing to sacrifice the lives of children for my own right to free speech, religion, or arms.

    What higher purpose can we have than to do well for the next generation?

    It's a matter of ethics.

    That doesn't make being forced to buy something any less tyrannical, it's just the lesser of two evils.
    So, given your great concern for children and the next generation, is it safe to assume that you're a strong supporter of increased funding for the Department of Education, SCHIP, school lunch programs, etc.? Or like most social conservatives, does your concern for the children end at the labia?

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So, given your great concern for children and the next generation, is it safe to assume that you're a strong supporter of increased funding for the Department of Education, SCHIP, school lunch programs, etc.? Or like most social conservatives, does your concern for the children end at the labia?
    Talk about a false choice. Not one of those programs does jack for children. All they do is employ useless government workers and fatten the wallets of bureaucrats.

    They dupe people like you in to believing they're "helping kids" and "helping the poor" and all that... but what have those programs done over the past 50 years? Schools still suck, and people are still poor. Only thing that happens is your money is going straight in to someone else's wallet.

    Duped.
    Last edited by Peter Grimm; 02-16-12 at 02:07 AM.

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    Re: Va. House GOP muscles through abortion curbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    that's great.

    meanwhile, if they CHOOSE to have an abortion employ people, they will they be FORCED to undergo this procedure purchase coverage for abortiofascients...or possibly go to jail.
    fixed that for you

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