Egypt's Brotherhood says it should govern

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

sharon said:
Decades of experience in the Arab world and a long memory..

The last guy who declared himself Caliph was chased off the Arabian Peninsula two weeks later.

If you don't mind me asking, what is that experience? I mean, were you in the State Dept.? What capacity did you have such intimate dealings with the Arab world?

j-mac

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

Inclop4.5 said:
My father lives in Germany and as he is a doctor, he is actually right now sending medical aid to protestors in Tahrir square. Funnily enough, a minor political party actually asked him if he wanted to run for presidency. He and most Egyptians look incredibly optimistic into the future. When the curfews were in power, my grandfather had no idea what they were about (he is 96) and he went out the house past 9 p.m. The police threatened to beat him if he didnt go back inside, he was very confused untill a group of young men came and helped him along. They escorted him to his appartment, whilst engaging in a fight with the police. I think the Egyptians accomplished something amazing, and the feeling of national unity is greater than ever before. As i said, in 8 years or so the people will know that they are free and that they have nothing more to fear. Untill then, the people wont let themselves be repressed furhter, for they learnt one thing... Even the most ruthless leaders can be overthrown.

96 eh? Wow! that is impresive. What in his view was the over arching catylist to this over arching movement?

j-mac

Inclop4.5 · Feb 12, 2012

By movement do you mean the action of help to my grandfather?

sharon · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
If you don't mind me asking, what is that experience? I mean, were you in the State Dept.? What capacity did you have such intimate dealings with the Arab world?

j-mac

The last time I was in Arabia, I was asked to do a video interview for the University archives.. I talked about Arabia then and now.. It was an especially interesting experience for me because my driver, translator and camera crew were all under 35.. and didn't know what Arabia was like or how far they have progressed.

On my last night I attended a banquet with a lot of royals and government dignitaries. and was asked to speak at a press conference.. I was caught completely off guard.//

The first question was about commerce between the US and Saudi Arabia.. and I actually knew the data so that didn't throw me for a loop.

But the next question was: What does the West think of women's rights in Arabia?

Fortunately I had spent many hours with a large group of Saudi business women that week..

So I said.. "Look, I am a Southerner.. a Christian and basically conservative.. and the Saudi women I have met were charming, educated and highly competent.. so my position is that Saudi men and women can work this out based on their culture, heritage and faith.. and the West should mind its own business."

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

Inclop4.5 said:
By movement do you mean the action of help to my grandfather?

No, by movement I mean what we see happening not only in Egypt, but accross the spectrum in the ME...

j-mac

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

sharon said:
The last time I was in Arabia, I was asked to do a video interview for the University archives.. I talked about Arabia then and now.. It was an especially interesting experience for me because my driver, translator and camera crew were all under 35.. and didn't know what Arabia was like or how far they have progressed.

On my last night I attended a banquet with a lot of royals and government dignitaries. and was asked to speak at a press conference.. I was caught completely off guard.//

The first question was about commerce between the US and Saudi Arabia.. and I actually knew the data so that didn't throw me for a loop.

But the next question was: What does the West think of women's rights in Arabia?

Fortunately I had spent many hours with a large group of Saudi business women that week..

So I said.. "Look, I am a Southerner.. a Christian and basically conservative.. and the Saudi women I have met were charming, educated and highly competent.. so my position is that Saudi men and women can work this out based on their culture, heritage and faith.. and the West should mind its own business."

So If I am reading this correctly, and excuse me if I am not, but instead of a direct answer, you more elude, which forces me to guess that your experience is more acdemic than political? Is that about right?

j-mac

sharon · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
So If I am reading this correctly, and excuse me if I am not, but instead of a direct answer, you more elude, which forces me to guess that your experience is more acdemic than political? Is that about right?

j-mac

You can guess all you like.. I am not an academic.

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

sharon said:
You can guess all you like.. I am not an academic.

Well then, just tell me for goodness sake. Why must I play twenty questions?

j-mac

sharon · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
Well then, just tell me for goodness sake. Why must I play twenty questions?

j-mac

I am not going to tell you specifically about the two decades I spent in the ME.

If you want more information about the role of Americans in Saudi Arabia since the 1930s, you may want to look at SUSRIS or ARAMCO Annuitants websites.

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

sharon said:
I am not going to tell you specifically about the two decades I spent in the ME.

If you want more information about the role of Americans in Saudi Arabia since the 1930s, you may want to look at SUSRIS or ARAMCO Annuitants websites.

Then I have no other conclusion to come to other than you are not being honest of your supposed knowledge from which you speak. I wasn't trying to box you in, rather determine from what position of experience you speak from. I mean after all I wouldn't see what it matters, you telling me that is, this is an anonymus board, and no one knows who you are so, the only reason to say that you will NOT tell me, just lends a lack of credibility into what you say....Sorry....Have a nice day.

j-mac

Temporal · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
Gheeze, we didn't see this one coming right?....Oh wait, we did too...In fact it is exactly what we said would happen. What a mess. Funny how the Islamist group MB sounds just like liberal progressives here in America doesn't it?Using a crisis to grab power, changing their name to soften the appeal to the masses, etc....j-mac

That's the thing about propping up a U.S. backed leader in a country that is against it... once they have freedom of determination again, they are likely to choose the most hardline people who will attack foreign interests. That's exactly what happened in Iran with the rise of the mullahs.

Egypt's revolution is going to ensure they have self-determination, and we won't have any say in who they pick. That's what the world is coming to.

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

Temporal said:
That's the thing about propping up a U.S. backed leader in a country that is against it... once they have freedom of determination again, they are likely to choose the most hardline people who will attack foreign interests. That's exactly what happened in Iran with the rise of the mullahs.

Egypt's revolution is going to ensure they have self-determination, and we won't have any say in who they pick. That's what the world is coming to.

And what happens when that fully takes place? Anything good?

j-mac

AdamT · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
Then I have no other conclusion to come to other than you are not being honest of your supposed knowledge from which you speak. I wasn't trying to box you in, rather determine from what position of experience you speak from. I mean after all I wouldn't see what it matters, you telling me that is, this is an anonymus board, and no one knows who you are so, the only reason to say that you will NOT tell me, just lends a lack of credibility into what you say....Sorry....Have a nice day.

j-mac

Seems to me sharon was perfectly clear that she spent two decades living in the Middle East. What are your qualifications that give you a superior perspective?

sharon · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
Then I have no other conclusion to come to other than you are not being honest of your supposed knowledge from which you speak. I wasn't trying to box you in, rather determine from what position of experience you speak from. I mean after all I wouldn't see what it matters, you telling me that is, this is an anonymus board, and no one knows who you are so, the only reason to say that you will NOT tell me, just lends a lack of credibility into what you say....Sorry....Have a nice day.

j-mac

I am sorry you feel that way.. I went to school on Rutlege Avenue in the Holy City and lived in Flowertown.. but I have no intention of telling you who I am or who may family was.

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

AdamT said:
Seems to me sharon was perfectly clear that she spent two decades living in the Middle East. What are your qualifications that give you a superior perspective?

I don't recall saying that I was giving superior perspective, could you point out where I said that?.....Only that I wanted to know in what capacity she was there, it makes a difference as to the lens she sees the ME through, and I am interested. Now, go troll elsewhere. Thanks.

j-mac

sharon · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
I don't recall saying that I was giving superior perspective, could you point out where I said that?.....Only that I wanted to know in what capacity she was there, it makes a difference as to the lens she sees the ME through, and I am interested. Now, go troll elsewhere. Thanks.

j-mac

Through the oil business.............. and all the contact and negotiations that required.

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

sharon said:
I am sorry you feel that way.. I went to school on Rutlege Avenue in the Holy City and lived in Flowertown.. but I have no intention of telling you who I am or who may family was.

I do not want to know any of that. Only if in vague terms, for instance, would you say you are pro Palestinian? Would you say that when Amhadinejihad calls for the Mahdi to return, and hasten the caliphate, is he speaking on the verge of being cast out? Or are there some that follow, and believe his words? Things like that, which are intrigue rather than some percieved political point scoring...

j-mac

sharon · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
I do not want to know any of that. Only if in vague terms, for instance, would you say you are pro Palestinian? Would you say that when Amhadinejihad calls for the Mahdi to return, and hasten the caliphate, is he speaking on the verge of being cast out? Or are there some that follow, and believe his words? Things like that, which are intrigue rather than some percieved political point scoring...

j-mac

Ahmadinejad is mouthy and unimportant.

And yes I have been pro Palestinians since the early 1950s because there were many Palestinians working in Arabia and Christian Palestinians were in my Sunday School class.

And I wouldn't worry too much about that 12th Imam drivel... Iranians who believe that are a minority.. sort of like Hal Lindsey's Rapture Ready gang.

There won't be another Caliphate.. the last one was a dud, that sent the Arab world backwards 600 years.

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

sharon said:
Ahmadinejad is mouthy and unimportant.

Mouthy, heck yeah, we agree on that for sure....Unimportant? Not so sure about that....

And yes I have been pro Palestinians since the early 1950s because there were many Palestinians working in Arabia and Christian Palestinians were in my Sunday School class.

Interesting, Does Israel have the right to exist?

And I wouldn't worry too much about that 12th Imam drivel... Iranians who believe that are a minority.. sort of like Hal Lindsey's Rapture Ready gang.

The last time we said pay no attention to the mad man in control, 6 million Jews were killed.

There won't be another Caliphate.. the last one was a dud, that sent the Arab world backwards 600 years.

As a historical basis, how many true caliphates have been attempted?

j-mac

sharon · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
Mouthy, heck yeah, we agree on that for sure....Unimportant? Not so sure about that....

Interesting, Does Israel have the right to exist?

Yes.. and I think they have made very poor choices in Palestine over the past 80 years... that have brought us to this impasse.

The last time we said pay no attention to the mad man in control, 6 million Jews were killed.

Ahmadinejad is not the power in Iran.. He's the mouthpiece. If he were the power, we would have resolved this mess. I wouldn't compare him to Hitler.. Bush did that with Saddam Hussein..

As a historical basis, how many true caliphates have been attempted?

Oh I don't really know.. The last attempt was 1924.. I think it lasted two weeks. There were some small ones in Yemen and I believe in Sudan, but they had absolutely no clout in the Arab world.[/B}

j-mac

............................ The Arab states all have their own interests and priorities.. there will never be another Caliphate unless its an honorarium.. and that is doubtful.. There are just too many different sects in Islam.

j-mac · Feb 12, 2012

sharon said:
Yes.. and I think they have made very poor choices in Palestine over the past 80 years... that have brought us to this impasse.

Like what?

Ahmadinejad is not the power in Iran.. He's the mouthpiece. If he were the power, we would have resolved this mess. I wouldn't compare him to Hitler.. Bush did that with Saddam Hussein..

Amhad...may not be the power, but the Mullah's either approve of his words, or they are scared of him. Either way it makes him dangerous when he talks of wiping out Israel. As for Godwining the thread, I am not trying to do that, but we must not be afraid to make the comparison especially when the people he wants to wipe out are one in the same.

Oh I don't really know.. The last attempt was 1924.. I think it lasted two weeks. There were some small ones in Yemen and I believe in Sudan, but they had absolutely no clout in the Arab world.

The point is that the goal of caliphate in not dead, just not realized by the right person. And when that day comes, it could very well be a horrible outcome, no?

The Arab states all have their own interests and priorities.. there will never be another Caliphate unless its an honorarium.. and that is doubtful.. There are just too many different sects in Islam.

Don't these different sects work together when the situation calls for it?

j-mac

sharon · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
Like what?

Name a year.. The European refugees considered the Arabs in Palestine NON person.

Amhad...may not be the power, but the Mullah's either approve of his words, or they are scared of him. Either way it makes him dangerous when he talks of wiping out Israel. As for Godwining the thread, I am not trying to do that, but we must not be afraid to make the comparison especially when the people he wants to wipe out are one in the same.

Amhad is on the outs with the Mullahs for months and there are rumors of a coup. He didn't threaten to wipe Israel off the map.. He basically said that Zionism would pass from the pages of history and that if Israel attacked, they would retaliate.

The point is that the goal of caliphate in not dead, just not realized by the right person. And when that day comes, it could very well be a horrible outcome, no?

Are you speaking for the goals of the Caliphate and the Arab mind? The Saudis, Kuwaitis, Egyptians, Omanis, Yemenese all have different aspirations.

Don't these different sects work together when the situation calls for it?

What situation?

j-mac

..................................

Kane · Feb 12, 2012

Erod said:
So your answer is, just let them be slaughtered?

Kane said:
The Arab Spring is just a new name for the war on terror. John McCain boasts about the endgame. Obama is nothing except a NeoCon in sheeps clothing.

"US Senator John McCain, chairmen of the International Republican Institute, an organization dedicated to fomenting extraterritorial seditious unrest and revolution throughout the world, openly said of the unrest his IRI had helped fund starting in Egypt, ravaging Libya, and now consuming Syria, "I would be a little less cocky in the Kremlin with my KGB cronies today if I were Vladimir Putin. I would be a little less secure in the seaside resort [of] President Hu and a few men who govern and decide the fate of 1.3 billion people."

Land Destroyer: JP Blabs Truth About Western Stance Toward Syria: To Weaken Iran

Like other stories from the Arab Spring, these "slaughter" propaganda accounts are manufactured by NGO's human rights groups, and these Western funded NGO's are fronts for corporatists who want to plunder natural resources. Also missing from your analysis is the petro-dollar. As Iran and Libya allegedly wanted oil traded in euros or at least Quadaffi was going to switch before he was assassinated. And someone has yet to mention the Shanghai Co Op.

"Giraldi adds that the CIA analysts themselves are "skeptical regarding the approach to war", as they know that the frequently cited United Nations account of civilians killed is based largely on rebel sources and uncorroborated. The CIA has "refused to sign off on the claims" of mass defections from the Syrian Army. Likewise, accounts of pitched battles between deserters and loyal soldiers "appear to be a fabrication, with few defections being confirmed independently"."

Asia Times Online :: Run-up to proxy war over Syria

AdamT · Feb 12, 2012

j-mac said:
I don't recall saying that I was giving superior perspective, could you point out where I said that?.....Only that I wanted to know in what capacity she was there, it makes a difference as to the lens she sees the ME through, and I am interested. Now, go troll elsewhere. Thanks.

j-mac

Well, you clearly stated that you can't judge her credibility on this topic without knowing her background and experience. Are you claiming that we should trust your opinion on this subject without similar disclosure?

"Then I have no other conclusion to come to other than you are not being honest of your supposed knowledge from which you speak. I wasn't trying to box you in, rather determine from what position of experience you speak from. I mean after all I wouldn't see what it matters, you telling me that is, this is an anonymus board, and no one knows who you are so, the only reason to say that you will NOT tell me, just lends a lack of credibility into what you say....Sorry....Have a nice day."

sharon · Feb 13, 2012

AdamT said:
Well, you clearly stated that you can't judge her credibility on this topic without knowing her background and experience. Are you claiming that we should trust your opinion on this subject without similar disclosure?

"Then I have no other conclusion to come to other than you are not being honest of your supposed knowledge from which you speak. I wasn't trying to box you in, rather determine from what position of experience you speak from. I mean after all I wouldn't see what it matters, you telling me that is, this is an anonymus board, and no one knows who you are so, the only reason to say that you will NOT tell me, just lends a lack of credibility into what you say....Sorry....Have a nice day."

I think what is missing here is the big picture.. During the first 30 years of the oil business in Arabia, Americans were involved in every aspect of development.. from building roads and power plants.. to drilling water wells, to eradicating Malaria, to education and training up a Saudi labor force...to constant negotiation with the SAG and the king.

The American community was quite small.. and everyone was a designated diplomat. We were taught that we came to get the oil NOT to reform Arab culture or act as missionaries.

That may be difficult for someone who works for Kroger Corporation or GE etc.. in the US to wrap their head around.

Egypt's Brotherhood says it should govern

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