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NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

Harry Guerrilla said:
Sorry but there is no such thing as the "gun show loophole."
All firearm dealers are required to process all individuals through the background check process.
Unless they have a concealed carry permit.

The dealer in the video, was committing multiple felonies.
Enforce those laws, instead.
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Yes, I know what the law says. Unfortunately it's rather vague on what constitutes a "dealer". In fact, there are individuals who are not registered as dealers but who are in fact dealers in all but name, and they travel around the country selling guns to convicted felons. It's hard to understand how you could support this loophole ... unless you don't think there should be a prohibition on selling guns to felons.
 
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TurtleDude said:
sadly you again are wrong. very few weapons used in crimes were obtained at gun shows and the rules at a gun show are no different than anywhere else in a given state
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Regrettably, and as usual, you know not of what you speak.

In 2000, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) published the "Following the Gun" report.[18] The ATF analyzed more than 1,530 trafficking investigations over a two-and-a-half-year period and found gun shows to be the second leading source of illegally diverted guns in the nation. "Straw purchasing was the most common channel in trafficking investigations."[19] These investigations involved a total of 84,128 firearms that had been diverted from legal to illegal commerce. All told, the report identified more than 26,000 firearms that had been illegally trafficked through gun shows in 212 separate investigations. The report stated that: "A prior review of ATF gun show investigations shows that prohibited persons, such as convicted felons and juveniles, do personally buy firearms at gun shows and gun shows are sources of firearms that are trafficked to such prohibited persons. The gun show review found that firearms were diverted at and through gun shows by straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers. Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations. Firearms that were illegally diverted at or through gun shows were recovered in subsequent crimes, including homicide and robbery, in more than a third of the gun show investigations."
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AdamT said:
Yes, I know what the law says. Unfortunately it's rather vague on what constitutes a "dealer". In fact, there are individuals who are not registered as dealers but who are in fact dealers in all but name, and they travel around the country selling guns to convicted felons. It's hard to understand how you could support this loophole ... unless you don't think there should be a prohibition on selling guns to felons.
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duh its already a federal felony to sell a gun to someone you know is a prohibited person.

and its not a loophole.
 
TurtleDude said:
duh its already a federal felony to sell a gun to someone you know is a prohibited person.

and its not a loophole.
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Hmm, I thought you said you were a lawyer. It's a little easier to enforce a background check than it is to prove a state of mind.
 
AdamT said:
Regrettably, and as usual, you know not of what you speak.
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actually you are full of it. the ATF terms are loaded and do not prove what you claim

for example the ATF under OBAMA tried to convince congress that the mexican cartels were getting most of their guns from the USA when they claimed that MOST OF THE GUNS TRACED BY THE ATF came from america. well duh, because guns made in other countries cannot be traced by the ATF

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/fuo.txt

urce of gun 1997 1991
Total 100.0% 100.0%
Purchased from -- 13.9 20.8
Retail store 8.3 14.7
Pawnshop 3.8 4.2
Flea market 1.0 1.3
Gun show 0.7 0.6
Friends or family 39.6 33.8
Street/illegal source 39.2 40.8
 
AdamT said:
Yes, I know what the law says. Unfortunately it's rather vague on what constitutes a "dealer". In fact, there are individuals who are not registered as dealers but who are in fact dealers in all but name, and they travel around the country selling guns to convicted felons. It's hard to understand how you could support this loophole ... unless you don't think there should be a prohibition on selling guns to felons.
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If you engage in the business of selling guns, you are by law, a dealer.
The law is very clear on this and you are required to be registered with the federal government.
Not doing so is a felony.

There is no dealer loophole, it doesn't exist.
It's already illegal to knowingly sell firearms to felons.

No amount of word dancing by you will defeat these facts.
 
AdamT said:
Hmm, I thought you said you were a lawyer. It's a little easier to enforce a background check than it is to prove a state of mind.
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lets make drug dealers require prescriptions before they sell crack

you really post some clueless crap on this issue. People who engage in illegal USE of guns buy ILLEGAL GUNS in the black market.

how many gun shows have you attended? do you have any clue how many federal and state cops are at those things? often working as dealers?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
If you engage in the business of selling guns, you are by law, a dealer.
The law is very clear on this and you are required to be registered with the federal government.
Not doing so is a felony.

There is no dealer loophole, it doesn't exist.
It's already illegal to knowingly sell firearms to felons.

No amount of word dancing by you will defeat these facts.
Click to expand...

the anti gun nuts tend to use loaded terms designed to convince the weakminded but which are lies

requiring a license to sell guns is the real loophole-its a rather recent invention and never ever would have passed congress if it was applied to all citizens
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
If you engage in the business of selling guns, you are by law, a dealer.
The law is very clear on this and you are required to be registered with the federal government.
Not doing so is a felony.

There is no dealer loophole, it doesn't exist.
It's already illegal to knowingly sell firearms to felons.

No amount of word dancing by you will defeat these facts.
Click to expand...

Again, it is not as clear as you want to pretend it is. What is "the business" of selling guns? Obviously it's not selling one gun. What about two? What about 10? What about 10 per month? What about 12 or 20 per month? Maybe you're just a "collector" who actively trades in guns? And does it matter? The fact is that any felon can walk into a gun show and purchase a gun, and no one is going to say boo. In other words, whether you call it a "dealer" loophole or not, it's still a problem ... IF you think that felons ought not to buy guns.

Do you think that restriction should be eliminated? If not, what would be your objection to requiring private sellers to use the same electronic check system that dealers use?
 
Should Gun Shows Be Outlawed?

The true figure is rather different, according to federal government data, and other sources. The Bureau of Justice Statistics report Firearms Use by Offenders finds that only about 1 percent of U.S. crime guns come from gun shows. The BJS study was based on personal interviews with 18,000 prison inmates in 1997, and was the largest such study ever conducted by the federal government. Of course this figure includes all sales at gun shows, including sales by federal firearms licensees. (Since some future criminals have clean or expunged records, they could pass any background check.) The sources of criminal guns were:

Purchased from a retail store, 8.3 percent.
Purchased at a pawnshop, 3.8 percent.
Purchased at a flea market, 1.0 percent.
Purchased in a gun show, 0.7 percent.
Obtained from friends or family, 39.6 percent.
Got on the street/illegal source, 39.2 percent.
Combining "gun show" with "flea market", we get 1.7 percent. Notably, a much larger percentage of criminal guns -- 8.3 percent -- were "purchased from a retail store." Because all retail stores are federal firearms licensees, and therefore required to the background checks on all customers, the significant number of criminal guns obtained from retail stores shows that many criminals may have clean records at the time they buy the gun. Or the criminals have surrogates with clean records who can buy the gun for them. Since we know that universal background checks cannot stop criminals obtaining guns from retail stores, it would be foolish to expect that wider background checks would stop that very small percentage of crime guns which come from gun shows.
 
The real reason why anti gun nuts want to ban gun shows

(from the same citation above-many other authors have said the same thing)

Although the campaign against gun shows makes very little sense as a crime control measure, the campaign is eminently sensible as a political measure. Shutting down gun shows means shutting down one of the most important ways that gun rights activists communicate with gun owners who do not already belong to gun rights groups. Until the political base of the gun rights movement is destroyed, the most ambitious objectives of the anti-gun movement remain very difficult to achieve. Given the slender margins of the 2000 elections, if there had not been any gun shows in 2000, it is likely that Al Gore would be President and Richard Gephardt would be Speaker of the House.
 
TurtleDude said:
lets make drug dealers require prescriptions before they sell crack

you really post some clueless crap on this issue. People who engage in illegal USE of guns buy ILLEGAL GUNS in the black market.

how many gun shows have you attended? do you have any clue how many federal and state cops are at those things? often working as dealers?
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I've been to a handful of gunshows, which was plenty enough to learn that there are many regular sellers who claim not to be dealers and who are more than happy to sell without BG checks.

Why don't we try a better drug analogy? Let's just do away with the restriction on drug selling for people who aren't "in the business" of selling drugs. How do you know they aren't "in the business" of selling drugs? Well ... they didn't apply for a license!! :rofl:
 
AdamT said:
Again, it is not as clear as you want to pretend it is. What is "the business" of selling guns? Obviously it's not selling one gun. What about two? What about 10? What about 10 per month? What about 12 or 20 per month? Maybe you're just a "collector" who actively trades in guns? And does it matter? The fact is that any felon can walk into a gun show and purchase a gun, and no one is going to say boo. In other words, whether you call it a "dealer" loophole or not, it's still a problem ... IF you think that felons ought not to buy guns.

Do you think that restriction should be eliminated? If not, what would be your objection to requiring private sellers to use the same electronic check system that dealers use?
Click to expand...

there is plenty of a case law that allows a DA or a AUSA to charge someone with being a dealer without a license

the only way to enforce your wet dream of making private citizens conduct BG checks is to have COMPLETE REGISTRATION of all firearms (which of course cannot happen)

you see if you actually understood this business you would know that when a dealer (FFL holder) receives a gun he has to log that in and the manufacturer has to keep records of where the guns they make go. SO if a gun is traced to a dealer and he does not show who bought it he could lose his license or worse. But if I sell my brother a gun and he sells it to his buddy at work, the only way you can prove that I sold it to him is if the gun was registered

which of course is what many people like you want

except criminals won't register guns they own illegally
 
AdamT said:
Okay, so let's just forget that you're linking to a pro-gun site as if it's good evidence.... Let's say it's 1% of all guns used in felonies. Fine. So let's eliminate that 1%. What's the problem?
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well sadly for you that again is a stupid assumption

you see Clinton claimed the brady bill prevented HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FELONS From buying guns. Yet if they attempted to buy a gun subject to the BB they COMMITTED PERJURY and yet only TWELVE were prosecuted and guess what-there was no evidence that this law actually decreased crime

try again you fail
 
TurtleDude said:
The real reason why anti gun nuts want to ban gun shows

(from the same citation above-many other authors have said the same thing)

Although the campaign against gun shows makes very little sense as a crime control measure, the campaign is eminently sensible as a political measure. Shutting down gun shows means shutting down one of the most important ways that gun rights activists communicate with gun owners who do not already belong to gun rights groups. Until the political base of the gun rights movement is destroyed, the most ambitious objectives of the anti-gun movement remain very difficult to achieve. Given the slender margins of the 2000 elections, if there had not been any gun shows in 2000, it is likely that Al Gore would be President and Richard Gephardt would be Speaker of the House.
Click to expand...

Wow, could you be any more deceptive? No one is proposing that gun shows be shut down. It is simply a question of requiring everyone to pass a background check, whether they are buying from a dealer or a private seller.
 
TurtleDude said:
well sadly for you that again is a stupid assumption

you see Clinton claimed the brady bill prevented HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FELONS From buying guns. Yet if they attempted to buy a gun subject to the BB they COMMITTED PERJURY and yet only TWELVE were prosecuted and guess what-there was no evidence that this law actually decreased crime

try again you fail
Click to expand...

So you cited the 1% figure in support of your argument, and now you want to attack me because I assumed that what you posted was true? You can't make this **** up. :2rofll:
 
TurtleDude said:
Should Gun Shows Be Outlawed?

The true figure is rather different, according to federal government data, and other sources. The Bureau of Justice Statistics report Firearms Use by Offenders finds that only about 1 percent of U.S. crime guns come from gun shows. The BJS study was based on personal interviews with 18,000 prison inmates in 1997, and was the largest such study ever conducted by the federal government. Of course this figure includes all sales at gun shows, including sales by federal firearms licensees. (Since some future criminals have clean or expunged records, they could pass any background check.) The sources of criminal guns were:

Purchased from a retail store, 8.3 percent.
Purchased at a pawnshop, 3.8 percent.
Purchased at a flea market, 1.0 percent.
Purchased in a gun show, 0.7 percent.
Obtained from friends or family, 39.6 percent.
Got on the street/illegal source, 39.2 percent.
Combining "gun show" with "flea market", we get 1.7 percent. Notably, a much larger percentage of criminal guns -- 8.3 percent -- were "purchased from a retail store." Because all retail stores are federal firearms licensees, and therefore required to the background checks on all customers, the significant number of criminal guns obtained from retail stores shows that many criminals may have clean records at the time they buy the gun. Or the criminals have surrogates with clean records who can buy the gun for them. Since we know that universal background checks cannot stop criminals obtaining guns from retail stores, it would be foolish to expect that wider background checks would stop that very small percentage of crime guns which come from gun shows.
Click to expand...

Using the same anti-gun show logic and applying it to the statistics you provided above, it clearly makes sense that anti-gun people should be advocating for the federal government to ban family and friends. :eek:
 
AdamT said:
I've been to a handful of gunshows, which was plenty enough to learn that there are many regular sellers who claim not to be dealers and who are more than happy to sell without BG checks.

Why don't we try a better drug analogy? Let's just do away with the restriction on drug selling for people who aren't "in the business" of selling drugs. How do you know they aren't "in the business" of selling drugs? Well ... they didn't apply for a license!! :rofl:
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1) I don't believe you

2) the ATF is all over those shows ( I know the ATF officers in town and I see them, DEA, FBI, and all sorts of locals at those shows)

3) if some guy constantly is selling guns "from his private collection" that is going to draw serious attention. Plus ATF especially under DEM administrations-are constantly trying to catch people. I worked for a client at a gun show years ago and one guy asked me if I would take 600 dollars for a 400 dollar gun "without and papers". I told him I was a city prosecutor and that was illegal. I later found out he was a TFO trying to bust dealers
 
AdamT said:
Okay, so let's just forget that you're linking to a pro-gun site as if it's good evidence.... Let's say it's 1% of all guns used in felonies. Fine. So let's eliminate that 1%. What's the problem?
Click to expand...

The assumption that you'll actually prevent those crimes from occuring by implementing the policies you're proposing, or that gun control measures serve to prevent any crime, period.

Brian
 
AdamT said:
Wow, could you be any more deceptive? No one is proposing that gun shows be shut down. It is simply a question of requiring everyone to pass a background check, whether they are buying from a dealer or a private seller.
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stop lying. lots of people are trying to ban gun shows. and why should a private citizen be treated differently at a gun show compared to say a flea market or a swap meet or his own backyard?
 
AdamT said:
So you cited the 1% figure in support of your argument, and now you want to attack me because I assumed that what you posted was true? You can't make this **** up. :2rofll:
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I guess you cannot figure out that if somehow all those 1% were not able to buy at gunshows they would not cease obtaining guns. when the brady bill supposedly stopped HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of felons from buying from licensed dealers (A BS CLAIM) there was no decrease in gun violence tied to that law

later
 
TurtleDude said:
there is plenty of a case law that allows a DA or a AUSA to charge someone with being a dealer without a license

the only way to enforce your wet dream of making private citizens conduct BG checks is to have COMPLETE REGISTRATION of all firearms (which of course cannot happen)

you see if you actually understood this business you would know that when a dealer (FFL holder) receives a gun he has to log that in and the manufacturer has to keep records of where the guns they make go. SO if a gun is traced to a dealer and he does not show who bought it he could lose his license or worse. But if I sell my brother a gun and he sells it to his buddy at work, the only way you can prove that I sold it to him is if the gun was registered

which of course is what many people like you want

except criminals won't register guns they own illegally
Click to expand...

Okay, so I guess I'm missing something then. If the gun was sold legally, then it had to be registered by someone, correct? The purpose is to aid in tracing the gun. So what's the objection to registering all guns? Don't tell me -- you're afraid that the big bad gubment is going to confiscate all the guns.
 
AdamT said:
Okay, so I guess I'm missing something then. If the gun was sold legally, then it had to be registered by someone, correct? The purpose is to aid in tracing the gun. So what's the objection to registering all guns? Don't tell me -- you're afraid that the big bad gubment is going to confiscate all the guns.
Click to expand...


NOPE-the gunshop retains the 4473 but that is not sent to the ATF. true the ATF can use that to track down an owner but if I sell the gun there is no requirement of registering it or the second owner has no duty to register it in most states.

what is the objection to registration

1) see England, Kalifornia, NYC and NJ-all used registration to confiscate firearms

2) if the list is stolen or hacked criminals know who has guns and how many

3) criminals are exempt from it
 
TurtleDude said:
stop lying. lots of people are trying to ban gun shows. and why should a private citizen be treated differently at a gun show compared to say a flea market or a swap meet or his own backyard?
Click to expand...

Stop lying. The purpose of eliminating the gun show loophole is not to stop gun shows -- period. The purpose is to eliminate the loophole.
 
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