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Thread: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    and why do you say that? got any logical reason for such a childish snipe?
    Sure. Your post on the matter, i.e. "giving the opportunity to refuse."

    How did they do this exactly, and how does it make it not entrapment?
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Not really (especially in cases such as solicitation for prostitution or drug distribution), and coercion is a general affirmative defense.



    If it was so "offhand," then it doesn't do much to make the case the seller did anything illegal. Considering it's the entire lynchpin of the (hypothetical) case, "offhand" doesn't seem the appropriate word.
    Well yeah, entrapment generally implies that something improper was done, and thus in some states it IS an affirmative defense.

    In this case, whether the comments were offhand or not, it gave the sellers reason to believe that the buyer could not pass a BG check. The point is that the buyer didn't pressure the sellers at all.

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Sure. Your post on the matter, i.e. "giving the opportunity to refuse."

    How did they do this exactly, and how does it make it not entrapment?
    In criminal law, entrapment is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.[1] In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informant or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person (see sting operation). So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.
    Entrapment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The point is that the buyer didn't pressure the sellers at all.
    Not so sure that this is true.

    AZ entrapment:

    1. The idea of committing the offense started with law enforcement officers or their agents rather than with the person.

    2. The law enforcement officers or their agents urged and induced the person to commit the offense.

    3. The person was not predisposed to commit the type of offense charged before the law enforcement officers or their agents urged and induced the person to commit the offense.

    C. A person does not establish entrapment if the person was predisposed to commit the offense and the law enforcement officers or their agents merely provided the person with an opportunity to commit the offense. It is not entrapment for law enforcement officers or their agents merely to use a ruse or to conceal their identity. The conduct of law enforcement officers and their agents may be considered in determining if a person has proven entrapment.
    http://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/...e13/00206.html

    #1 is satisfied. #2 might be, depending on AZ caselaw concerning "urge" or "induce" which strikes me as considerably less than "pressure"; no way to know #3 without more information.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 02-13-12 at 03:35 PM.
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Wikipedia doesn't trump AZ statute.
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Wikipedia doesn't trump AZ statute.
    No, but they say essentially the same thing.

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, but they say essentially the same thing.
    AZ doesn't say anything about "the opportunity to refuse." That was what you were speaking to, wasn't it? If not, why did you quote me?

    Besides, Thunder can explain himself if he chooses.
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    AZ doesn't say anything about "the opportunity to refuse." That was what you were speaking to, wasn't it? If not, why did you quote me?

    Besides, Thunder can explain himself if he chooses.
    No, I didn't say anything about opportunity to refuse. What I'm saying is that the investigator just gave the sellers the opportunity to break the law and they jumped in with both feet. Every sting operation does not constitute entrapment, but it seems that it would under your definition of the term.

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, I didn't say anything about opportunity to refuse. What I'm saying is that the investigator just gave the sellers the opportunity to break the law and they jumped in with both feet. Every sting operation does not constitute entrapment, but it seems that it would under your definition of the term.
    Then I'm not sure why you responded to my post in that way.

    In any case, I showed the AZ elements of entrapment; the idea of the illegal activity originated with them. It wasn't a mere sting operation. They just picked a random guy.

    It is, of course, moot, because as I said, they needed to be AZ law enforcement anyway.
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Then I'm not sure why you responded to my post in that way.

    In any case, I showed the AZ elements of entrapment; the idea of the illegal activity originated with them. It wasn't a mere sting operation. They just picked a random guy.

    It is, of course, moot, because as I said, they needed to be AZ law enforcement anyway.
    A sting operation is almost always inititiated by investigators; that doesn't make it entrapment. "A person does not establish entrapment if the person was predisposed to commit the offense and the law enforcement officers or their agents merely provided the person with an opportunity to commit the offense."

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