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Thread: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

  1. #191
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    The real reason why anti gun nuts want to ban gun shows

    (from the same citation above-many other authors have said the same thing)

    Although the campaign against gun shows makes very little sense as a crime control measure, the campaign is eminently sensible as a political measure. Shutting down gun shows means shutting down one of the most important ways that gun rights activists communicate with gun owners who do not already belong to gun rights groups. Until the political base of the gun rights movement is destroyed, the most ambitious objectives of the anti-gun movement remain very difficult to achieve. Given the slender margins of the 2000 elections, if there had not been any gun shows in 2000, it is likely that Al Gore would be President and Richard Gephardt would be Speaker of the House.
    Wow, could you be any more deceptive? No one is proposing that gun shows be shut down. It is simply a question of requiring everyone to pass a background check, whether they are buying from a dealer or a private seller.

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    well sadly for you that again is a stupid assumption

    you see Clinton claimed the brady bill prevented HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FELONS From buying guns. Yet if they attempted to buy a gun subject to the BB they COMMITTED PERJURY and yet only TWELVE were prosecuted and guess what-there was no evidence that this law actually decreased crime

    try again you fail
    So you cited the 1% figure in support of your argument, and now you want to attack me because I assumed that what you posted was true? You can't make this **** up.

  3. #193
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Should Gun Shows Be Outlawed?

    The true figure is rather different, according to federal government data, and other sources. The Bureau of Justice Statistics report Firearms Use by Offenders finds that only about 1 percent of U.S. crime guns come from gun shows. The BJS study was based on personal interviews with 18,000 prison inmates in 1997, and was the largest such study ever conducted by the federal government. Of course this figure includes all sales at gun shows, including sales by federal firearms licensees. (Since some future criminals have clean or expunged records, they could pass any background check.) The sources of criminal guns were:

    Purchased from a retail store, 8.3 percent.
    Purchased at a pawnshop, 3.8 percent.
    Purchased at a flea market, 1.0 percent.
    Purchased in a gun show, 0.7 percent.
    Obtained from friends or family, 39.6 percent.
    Got on the street/illegal source, 39.2 percent.
    Combining "gun show" with "flea market", we get 1.7 percent. Notably, a much larger percentage of criminal guns -- 8.3 percent -- were "purchased from a retail store." Because all retail stores are federal firearms licensees, and therefore required to the background checks on all customers, the significant number of criminal guns obtained from retail stores shows that many criminals may have clean records at the time they buy the gun. Or the criminals have surrogates with clean records who can buy the gun for them. Since we know that universal background checks cannot stop criminals obtaining guns from retail stores, it would be foolish to expect that wider background checks would stop that very small percentage of crime guns which come from gun shows.
    Using the same anti-gun show logic and applying it to the statistics you provided above, it clearly makes sense that anti-gun people should be advocating for the federal government to ban family and friends.










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  4. #194
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I've been to a handful of gunshows, which was plenty enough to learn that there are many regular sellers who claim not to be dealers and who are more than happy to sell without BG checks.

    Why don't we try a better drug analogy? Let's just do away with the restriction on drug selling for people who aren't "in the business" of selling drugs. How do you know they aren't "in the business" of selling drugs? Well ... they didn't apply for a license!! :
    1) I don't believe you

    2) the ATF is all over those shows ( I know the ATF officers in town and I see them, DEA, FBI, and all sorts of locals at those shows)

    3) if some guy constantly is selling guns "from his private collection" that is going to draw serious attention. Plus ATF especially under DEM administrations-are constantly trying to catch people. I worked for a client at a gun show years ago and one guy asked me if I would take 600 dollars for a 400 dollar gun "without and papers". I told him I was a city prosecutor and that was illegal. I later found out he was a TFO trying to bust dealers

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Okay, so let's just forget that you're linking to a pro-gun site as if it's good evidence.... Let's say it's 1% of all guns used in felonies. Fine. So let's eliminate that 1%. What's the problem?
    The assumption that you'll actually prevent those crimes from occuring by implementing the policies you're proposing, or that gun control measures serve to prevent any crime, period.

    Brian

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Wow, could you be any more deceptive? No one is proposing that gun shows be shut down. It is simply a question of requiring everyone to pass a background check, whether they are buying from a dealer or a private seller.
    stop lying. lots of people are trying to ban gun shows. and why should a private citizen be treated differently at a gun show compared to say a flea market or a swap meet or his own backyard?

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So you cited the 1% figure in support of your argument, and now you want to attack me because I assumed that what you posted was true? You can't make this **** up.
    I guess you cannot figure out that if somehow all those 1% were not able to buy at gunshows they would not cease obtaining guns. when the brady bill supposedly stopped HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of felons from buying from licensed dealers (A BS CLAIM) there was no decrease in gun violence tied to that law

    later

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    there is plenty of a case law that allows a DA or a AUSA to charge someone with being a dealer without a license

    the only way to enforce your wet dream of making private citizens conduct BG checks is to have COMPLETE REGISTRATION of all firearms (which of course cannot happen)

    you see if you actually understood this business you would know that when a dealer (FFL holder) receives a gun he has to log that in and the manufacturer has to keep records of where the guns they make go. SO if a gun is traced to a dealer and he does not show who bought it he could lose his license or worse. But if I sell my brother a gun and he sells it to his buddy at work, the only way you can prove that I sold it to him is if the gun was registered

    which of course is what many people like you want

    except criminals won't register guns they own illegally
    Okay, so I guess I'm missing something then. If the gun was sold legally, then it had to be registered by someone, correct? The purpose is to aid in tracing the gun. So what's the objection to registering all guns? Don't tell me -- you're afraid that the big bad gubment is going to confiscate all the guns.

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Okay, so I guess I'm missing something then. If the gun was sold legally, then it had to be registered by someone, correct? The purpose is to aid in tracing the gun. So what's the objection to registering all guns? Don't tell me -- you're afraid that the big bad gubment is going to confiscate all the guns.

    NOPE-the gunshop retains the 4473 but that is not sent to the ATF. true the ATF can use that to track down an owner but if I sell the gun there is no requirement of registering it or the second owner has no duty to register it in most states.

    what is the objection to registration

    1) see England, Kalifornia, NYC and NJ-all used registration to confiscate firearms

    2) if the list is stolen or hacked criminals know who has guns and how many

    3) criminals are exempt from it

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    stop lying. lots of people are trying to ban gun shows. and why should a private citizen be treated differently at a gun show compared to say a flea market or a swap meet or his own backyard?
    Stop lying. The purpose of eliminating the gun show loophole is not to stop gun shows -- period. The purpose is to eliminate the loophole.

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