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Thread: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

  1. #181
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yes, I know what the law says. Unfortunately it's rather vague on what constitutes a "dealer". In fact, there are individuals who are not registered as dealers but who are in fact dealers in all but name, and they travel around the country selling guns to convicted felons. It's hard to understand how you could support this loophole ... unless you don't think there should be a prohibition on selling guns to felons.
    If you engage in the business of selling guns, you are by law, a dealer.
    The law is very clear on this and you are required to be registered with the federal government.
    Not doing so is a felony.

    There is no dealer loophole, it doesn't exist.
    It's already illegal to knowingly sell firearms to felons.

    No amount of word dancing by you will defeat these facts.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #182
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Hmm, I thought you said you were a lawyer. It's a little easier to enforce a background check than it is to prove a state of mind.
    lets make drug dealers require prescriptions before they sell crack

    you really post some clueless crap on this issue. People who engage in illegal USE of guns buy ILLEGAL GUNS in the black market.

    how many gun shows have you attended? do you have any clue how many federal and state cops are at those things? often working as dealers?

  3. #183
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If you engage in the business of selling guns, you are by law, a dealer.
    The law is very clear on this and you are required to be registered with the federal government.
    Not doing so is a felony.

    There is no dealer loophole, it doesn't exist.
    It's already illegal to knowingly sell firearms to felons.

    No amount of word dancing by you will defeat these facts.
    the anti gun nuts tend to use loaded terms designed to convince the weakminded but which are lies

    requiring a license to sell guns is the real loophole-its a rather recent invention and never ever would have passed congress if it was applied to all citizens

  4. #184
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If you engage in the business of selling guns, you are by law, a dealer.
    The law is very clear on this and you are required to be registered with the federal government.
    Not doing so is a felony.

    There is no dealer loophole, it doesn't exist.
    It's already illegal to knowingly sell firearms to felons.

    No amount of word dancing by you will defeat these facts.
    Again, it is not as clear as you want to pretend it is. What is "the business" of selling guns? Obviously it's not selling one gun. What about two? What about 10? What about 10 per month? What about 12 or 20 per month? Maybe you're just a "collector" who actively trades in guns? And does it matter? The fact is that any felon can walk into a gun show and purchase a gun, and no one is going to say boo. In other words, whether you call it a "dealer" loophole or not, it's still a problem ... IF you think that felons ought not to buy guns.

    Do you think that restriction should be eliminated? If not, what would be your objection to requiring private sellers to use the same electronic check system that dealers use?

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Should Gun Shows Be Outlawed?

    The true figure is rather different, according to federal government data, and other sources. The Bureau of Justice Statistics report Firearms Use by Offenders finds that only about 1 percent of U.S. crime guns come from gun shows. The BJS study was based on personal interviews with 18,000 prison inmates in 1997, and was the largest such study ever conducted by the federal government. Of course this figure includes all sales at gun shows, including sales by federal firearms licensees. (Since some future criminals have clean or expunged records, they could pass any background check.) The sources of criminal guns were:

    Purchased from a retail store, 8.3 percent.
    Purchased at a pawnshop, 3.8 percent.
    Purchased at a flea market, 1.0 percent.
    Purchased in a gun show, 0.7 percent.
    Obtained from friends or family, 39.6 percent.
    Got on the street/illegal source, 39.2 percent.
    Combining "gun show" with "flea market", we get 1.7 percent. Notably, a much larger percentage of criminal guns -- 8.3 percent -- were "purchased from a retail store." Because all retail stores are federal firearms licensees, and therefore required to the background checks on all customers, the significant number of criminal guns obtained from retail stores shows that many criminals may have clean records at the time they buy the gun. Or the criminals have surrogates with clean records who can buy the gun for them. Since we know that universal background checks cannot stop criminals obtaining guns from retail stores, it would be foolish to expect that wider background checks would stop that very small percentage of crime guns which come from gun shows.

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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    The real reason why anti gun nuts want to ban gun shows

    (from the same citation above-many other authors have said the same thing)

    Although the campaign against gun shows makes very little sense as a crime control measure, the campaign is eminently sensible as a political measure. Shutting down gun shows means shutting down one of the most important ways that gun rights activists communicate with gun owners who do not already belong to gun rights groups. Until the political base of the gun rights movement is destroyed, the most ambitious objectives of the anti-gun movement remain very difficult to achieve. Given the slender margins of the 2000 elections, if there had not been any gun shows in 2000, it is likely that Al Gore would be President and Richard Gephardt would be Speaker of the House.

  7. #187
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    lets make drug dealers require prescriptions before they sell crack

    you really post some clueless crap on this issue. People who engage in illegal USE of guns buy ILLEGAL GUNS in the black market.

    how many gun shows have you attended? do you have any clue how many federal and state cops are at those things? often working as dealers?
    I've been to a handful of gunshows, which was plenty enough to learn that there are many regular sellers who claim not to be dealers and who are more than happy to sell without BG checks.

    Why don't we try a better drug analogy? Let's just do away with the restriction on drug selling for people who aren't "in the business" of selling drugs. How do you know they aren't "in the business" of selling drugs? Well ... they didn't apply for a license!! :

  8. #188
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Okay, so let's just forget that you're linking to a pro-gun site as if it's good evidence.... Let's say it's 1% of all guns used in felonies. Fine. So let's eliminate that 1%. What's the problem?

  9. #189
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Again, it is not as clear as you want to pretend it is. What is "the business" of selling guns? Obviously it's not selling one gun. What about two? What about 10? What about 10 per month? What about 12 or 20 per month? Maybe you're just a "collector" who actively trades in guns? And does it matter? The fact is that any felon can walk into a gun show and purchase a gun, and no one is going to say boo. In other words, whether you call it a "dealer" loophole or not, it's still a problem ... IF you think that felons ought not to buy guns.

    Do you think that restriction should be eliminated? If not, what would be your objection to requiring private sellers to use the same electronic check system that dealers use?
    there is plenty of a case law that allows a DA or a AUSA to charge someone with being a dealer without a license

    the only way to enforce your wet dream of making private citizens conduct BG checks is to have COMPLETE REGISTRATION of all firearms (which of course cannot happen)

    you see if you actually understood this business you would know that when a dealer (FFL holder) receives a gun he has to log that in and the manufacturer has to keep records of where the guns they make go. SO if a gun is traced to a dealer and he does not show who bought it he could lose his license or worse. But if I sell my brother a gun and he sells it to his buddy at work, the only way you can prove that I sold it to him is if the gun was registered

    which of course is what many people like you want

    except criminals won't register guns they own illegally

  10. #190
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    Re: NYC Mayor Conducts Gun-Sale Sting in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Okay, so let's just forget that you're linking to a pro-gun site as if it's good evidence.... Let's say it's 1% of all guns used in felonies. Fine. So let's eliminate that 1%. What's the problem?
    well sadly for you that again is a stupid assumption

    you see Clinton claimed the brady bill prevented HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FELONS From buying guns. Yet if they attempted to buy a gun subject to the BB they COMMITTED PERJURY and yet only TWELVE were prosecuted and guess what-there was no evidence that this law actually decreased crime

    try again you fail

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