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Thread: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

  1. #251
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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Required by the government to work.
    All able bodied citizens are required by the government to work? That sounds like living under in a military dictatorship.

    What is it with you and bad analogies??? Low skill jobs now have a minimum wage, in my area it would take about a buck more to make that a living wage. If you don't need unskilled labor for a full time job, you don't have to hire him. If you need unskilled labor, pay him a buck an hour more in wages so the rest of us don't have pay taxes to subsidize your business.
    We don't "have to" provide welfare money as a dependent variable on what private businesses do or pay.

    What would you recommend, "How to **** the Poor 101?"
    No, just any college level economics course. There are consequences to all the things you blindly assume are great ideas. If you artificially pump wages, it will play out in the market in ways you don't seem to be anticipating.


    ANYWAY, the topic of this thread is what to do about welfare fraud and abuse. Let's assume the people really abusing welfare or getting it fraudulently don't have/can't get any job. Minimum wage hikes won't help them, nor will drug testing rich people. Those have been your main ideas for addressing this so far.

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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Seeing how 50% of American households do not pay federal income tax I find that hard to believe.How does someone who pays no federal income tax and getting welfare and food stamps benifit more from tax dollars that rich people?
    Claiming 50% of American households don't pay federal income tax doesn't make it so.

    Single: If taxable income is over $0, but not over $8,500. The tax is 10% of the amount over $0. Married filing jointly is $17,000 for the not over.

    Source: Rate schedule (federal income tax) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Table A-2 lists the median household income of the quintiles and the third quintile has a median household income of $49,534 in 2009, down from $52,457 in 1999.

    Source: http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf

    Explain how someone making less than that median household income has enough deductions to bring their taxable income to 0!

  3. #253
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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    All able bodied citizens are required by the government to work? That sounds like living under in a military dictatorship.
    Then you are unaware that is what the current welfare law requires? Since 1996 welfare reform act there has been a requirement for abled bodied people to work within after 2 years of benefits with a 5 year lifetime maximum on welfare benefits.



    We don't "have to" provide welfare money as a dependent variable on what private businesses do or pay.
    For employers that do not pay a living wage for full time work, we taxpayers subsidize through welfare to bring their employee above poverty.



    No, just any college level economics course. There are consequences to all the things you blindly assume are great ideas. If you artificially pump wages, it will play out in the market in ways you don't seem to be anticipating.
    No, because the market determines prices of goods. One of the main tenets of economics is that demand is necessary to drive production. That can't happen when all the wealth is concentrated at the top out of reach of the majority of consumers. That has been the failure behind trickle down economics. This has been our experience for the last decade.


    ANYWAY, the topic of this thread is what to do about welfare fraud and abuse. Let's assume the people really abusing welfare or getting it fraudulently don't have/can't get any job. Minimum wage hikes won't help them, nor will drug testing rich people. Those have been your main ideas for addressing this so far.
    There are no large number of people abusing welfare to go to titty bars. 42 states already have laws against it, and the remaining 8 have the power to do the same thing. Its a non-issue. It was only a scheme by the GOP to demonize the poor, so it might easier to convince people to cut funding for welfare to pay for the spending increases on the military and further tax breaks for the rich that Romney has proposed..
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #254
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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Sir you provided a paper that stated there were more successes with a living wage than there were failures in a sampling of cities.
    NO! You SOOOO misread that paper. What you were reading were the campgains to GET a Living Wage enacted. Which the paper discusses as places it's happened, places it's been tried and failed and using those as a control group for the effects of a living wage.

    And the EFFECTS of a living wage are slightly higher wages, higher unemployment rates.

    You really stepped in it here, catawba.
    It was not a study on national trends. And, they said the reason for failure of the living wage method in some cities is because it was voted down by various elected officials so there was never any actual living wage in reality.
    You have shown here you completely failed to understand:

    The paper
    Why I used it
    What was IMPORTANT.


    All you did was screen through the method portion read what you wanted to read.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Then you are unaware that is what the current welfare law requires? Since 1996 welfare reform act there has been a requirement for abled bodied people to work within after 2 years of benefits with a 5 year lifetime maximum on welfare benefits.
    Ok so your comment pertained to welfare recipients.

    For employers that do not pay a living wage for full time work, we taxpayers subsidize through welfare to bring their employee above poverty.
    Yes but we don't "have to" keep doing that pending businesses paying a "living wage." We could just turn the benefits off. There's no prerequisite.

    No, because the market determines prices of goods. One of the main tenets of economics is that demand is necessary to drive production. That can't happen when all the wealth is concentrated at the top out of reach of the majority of consumers. That has been the failure behind trickle down economics. This has been our experience for the last decade.
    Government wealth redistribution schemes will not right the system this day and age.

    There are no large number of people abusing welfare to go to titty bars. 42 states already have laws against it, and the remaining 8 have the power to do the same thing. Its a non-issue. It was only a scheme by the GOP to demonize the poor,
    I disagree, I think it's to demonize Democrats and their welfare statism.

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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    You really stepped in it here, catawba.
    What I had asked for, and have been waiting for, is your proof that shows national unemployment tracking each increase in minimum wage.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't appreciate that hick reference.
    Just because it's the south doesn't make it hick.

    It's actually what I consider a borderline racial pejorative.
    It isn't that way in this part of the South, where people take pride in their redneck or hick heritage. Many people in my state share a story similar to my Grandparents on my Father's side, who came to this area from West Virginia during WWII, because job opportunites opened up. My Grandmother and Grandfather both worked in a shipyard during the war. I've spent months in West Virginia and Florida and years in both North and South Carolina. My brother lives in South Carolina, close to where I lived as a child. I know the South and I know the South has problems.

    I'm glad to see Georgia coming along as well as it has. I once took part of a vacation to Tampa, Florida to explore Georgia on the way back. Georgia is one big state and has some interesting features.

    When we get back to the subject of household income and the cost of living, the South doesn't shine the way people down there claim. There are cities in the South where households have good income, but the rural areas are impoverished. Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't solve the problem. Besides poverty, the South has some of the most regressive taxation in the United States. It isn't a mystery why these backward ways keep people down.

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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Ok so your comment pertained to welfare recipients.
    Why yes, that is what we were talking about.



    Yes but we don't "have to" keep doing that pending businesses paying a "living wage." We could just turn the benefits off. There's no prerequisite.
    And spend the money instead on police and new prisons to take care of the poor that would then be willing to slice your throat for a loaf of bread? That would be short-sighted to the extreme, now wouldn't it?



    Government wealth redistribution schemes will not right the system this day and age.

    It seemed to be just fine with conservatives when they redistributed the wealth from the working class to the wealthy over the last 30 years. And its imperative if we are to revive our economy because a consumer economy, as we can plainly see, can't prosper when most of the wealth is at the top, out of reach of consumers.



    I disagree, I think it's to demonize Democrats and their welfare statism.
    You can disagree all you like. The Senate has no plans to take up this petty piece of diversion tactics.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #259
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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    Sorry Cat, think I misunderstood you. Here is the problem as I see it. Is it possible for corporations to be profitable and provide what you consider a living wage? That depends on what the standard of living is for employees. You also have to remember that America does not exist in a vacuum. We have to compete with the rest of the world. As employees in other countries wages and standard of living increase ours are decreasing. The middle class is vanishing in America. What can be done to reverse this. As it stands now America has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world only behind Japan. Tax rates around the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. If I start a company in America I pay a corporate tax rate of 38%. Then if I choose to invest my profits I pay an additional 15% capital gains tax on top of the corporate tax. I can also pay state corporate taxes as high as 12% depending on where I start my business. How can I compete with someone who starts a business in a country where corporate taxes are less than 20%? The current administration wants to increase taxes on corporations. This will effectivly drive another nail in the coffin of the middle class.
    No response to my post Catawba? Maybe you just missed it. or maybe its hard to come up with a good emotional liberal arguement when faced with the facts.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Educator Gary's Avatar
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    Re: House bans welfare recipients' money from strip clubs, liquor stores

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    Sorry Cat, think I misunderstood you. Here is the problem as I see it. Is it possible for corporations to be profitable and provide what you consider a living wage? That depends on what the standard of living is for employees. You also have to remember that America does not exist in a vacuum. We have to compete with the rest of the world. As employees in other countries wages and standard of living increase ours are decreasing. The middle class is vanishing in America. What can be done to reverse this. As it stands now America has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world only behind Japan. Tax rates around the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. If I start a company in America I pay a corporate tax rate of 38%. Then if I choose to invest my profits I pay an additional 15% capital gains tax on top of the corporate tax. I can also pay state corporate taxes as high as 12% depending on where I start my business. How can I compete with someone who starts a business in a country where corporate taxes are less than 20%? The current administration wants to increase taxes on corporations. This will effectivly drive another nail in the coffin of the middle class.
    The effective tax rate for corporations is what they pay and it's low for an industrialized country.

    You can tell a story about what you can entitlements, but the fact is those programs don't spend that much money and people wouldn't be eligible for the programs if they had a decent minimum wage.

    For businesses to prosper, the wages in this country are too low. When the mean household income of the third quintile has decreased by three thousand dollars in ten years, that means there is a substantial lose of purchasing power and a business is going to be affected. Look at Table A-2:

    http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf

    In 1999, the median household income for the third quintile was $52,457 and in 2009 it was $49,534. It doesn't take the brain of Einstein to figure out that even if all those other costs, like fuel and health care didn't increase, the economy would suffer for such a change. The government was having surpluses in 1999, but thanks to Bush, what was it like in 2009?

    One of the benefits of being in the military is being immune to what's happening in our economy. I walked out of the military in a recession on Jan 13, 1974 and was working in a Research Center a week later. Let me see someone do it now!

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