Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

FinnMacCool said:

I don't think it's anybody's fault. The cops did what they had to do, but the kid was suffering from a mental illness. There is no need to place any blame. It's just a terrible tragedy.

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oh boy, i don't know. in close quarters, couldn't they have shot him elsewhere on his body?

muciti said:

The way this child and his situation seemed to be escalating I am surprised this didn't turn out worse. As many times as the cops had been there, and some of the information about those incidents, as well as this incident gives some sight into this kid's mental state. He was dangerous. His family should have gotten him more help. This kid was very unstable. In a school or public environment, if he had one of these episodes (or whatever you want to call it) it could have been a disaster. The OP asked who was to blame, I think the parents were to blame. That child, in his state, should not have in a position to put himself into that type of position.

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you do not know what help the family sought or was receiving.

Aunt Spiker said:

Very tragic:

seems to me the medical and health profession field is at fault for this problems - I know nothing of their background as a family. But medical professionals offer little in the means of help for parents trying to raise violent autistic children and most medical insurance providers don't cover enough to give support.

Since autism is on the rise - the government and medical fields need to work together ot give a more firm foundation of support for the parents and enable better care and understanding.

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it seems there was probably something else wrong besides aspergers., which doesn't typically cause violent behavior, at least i don't think it does.

liblady said:

oh boy, i don't know. in close quarters, couldn't they have shot him elsewhere on his body?

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without being in the situation where a crazed person is violently swinging a knife at you it would be impossible to say. Police go into those situations with the best intentions (most of the time). We entrust them to make those decisions. A life or death situation when a man's life is in danger and he has a split second to make his decision. The police are there to protect. Themselves, his family and the community as a whole.

liblady said:

oh boy, i don't know. in close quarters, couldn't they have shot him elsewhere on his body?

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It has been determined that it is not feasible to "shoot to wound", as in the old cowboy shoot-im-in-the-shoulder trick, in almost any circumstances. It is virtually a universal principle in US law enforcement, and US jurisprudence, that shooting is always lethal force and that shooting to wound is both legally indefensible and tactically unsound. Shooting is reserved for lethal force situations, and the standard in the US is "shoot to stop the threat" which typically means shooting at the center chest.

Before someone brings it up, it is also standard proceedure to shoot and keep on shooting until the threat is obviously ended or the target is clearly disabled. The one-shot "stop" is more myth than reality, unless you get lucky.

Close quarters situations actually make marksmanship MORE difficult, not less.... the angles change quickly, everything happens very fast, and you have to consider that you or your weapon could be grabbed by the perp.


Most departments SOP is that if a knife-armed suspect is within 25' of police and moving forward with apparent aggression, he is to be shot.

Goshin said:

It has been determined that it is not feasible to "shoot to wound", as in the old cowboy shoot-im-in-the-shoulder trick, in almost any circumstances. It is virtually a universal principle in US law enforcement, and US jurisprudence, that shooting is always lethal force and that shooting to wound is both legally indefensible and tactically unsound. Shooting is reserved for lethal force situations, and the standard in the US is "shoot to stop the threat" which typically means shooting at the center chest.

Before someone brings it up, it is also standard proceedure to shoot and keep on shooting until the threat is obviously ended or the target is clearly disabled. The one-shot "stop" is more myth than reality, unless you get lucky.

Close quarters situations actually make marksmanship MORE difficult, not less.... the angles change quickly, everything happens very fast, and you have to consider that you or your weapon could be grabbed by the perp.


Most departments SOP is that if a knife-armed suspect is within 25' of police and moving forward with apparent aggression, he is to be shot.

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thanks for the explanation.

misterman said:

Now you're being uncivil and irrational.

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I've been stabbed several times over the course of my career and I've seen guys stabbed twenty plus times fighting aggressively (street fight) while being cuffed.

I watched a guy have a screw driver broken off in his sternum, a quarter inch from punching a hole in his aorta, attack us and fight hard until restrained by us.

Hell, we even had a guy slashed across his face with a razor blade, losing the eye in the process, continue to attack his attackers (bar fight) even as we were trying to restrain him. His wound took almost two hundred stitches to close

ric27 said:

I've been stabbed several times over the course of my career and I've seen guys stabbed twenty plus times fighting aggressively (street fight) while being cuffed.

I watched a guy have a screw driver broken off in his sternum, a quarter inch from punching a hole in his aorta, attack us and fight hard until restrained by us.

Hell, we even had a guy slashed across his face with a razor blade, losing the eye in the process, continue to attack his attackers (bar fight) even as we were trying to restrain him. His wound took almost two hundred stitches to close

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Now you're being pointless.

Goshin said:

It has been determined that it is not feasible to "shoot to wound", as in the old cowboy shoot-im-in-the-shoulder trick, in almost any circumstances. It is virtually a universal principle in US law enforcement, and US jurisprudence, that shooting is always lethal force and that shooting to wound is both legally indefensible and tactically unsound. Shooting is reserved for lethal force situations, and the standard in the US is "shoot to stop the threat" which typically means shooting at the center chest.

Before someone brings it up, it is also standard proceedure to shoot and keep on shooting until the threat is obviously ended or the target is clearly disabled. The one-shot "stop" is more myth than reality, unless you get lucky.

Close quarters situations actually make marksmanship MORE difficult, not less.... the angles change quickly, everything happens very fast, and you have to consider that you or your weapon could be grabbed by the perp.


Most departments SOP is that if a knife-armed suspect is within 25' of police and moving forward with apparent aggression, he is to be shot.

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I attended some high level training years ago-it was a "hot classroom". at one point the instructor told everyone to go outside and clear their weapons, and any backups they had. we each checked classmates's weapons -three times each. The instructor told us sometime in the next 40 minutes someone with a knife would come in and "attack us". so you have a room of 15 guys, most were experienced LEOs, and several of us were at least Class B or higher IPSC shooters. I at the time was the fastest "pin" shooter in that part of the country with a record that was the national standard. well about 10 minutes into the lecture some guy in body armor (just in case) and a rubber knife comes running from the back door. IN a real life situation he would have been shot 50 or 60 times but he was able to "cut" 7 of the students before some of us sitting in the farthest area from the door had drawn and "shot" him.

now what does this show

1) 15 highly trained pistol shots-12 of whom had actually shot someone in the past would have killed this guy but a bunch of us would have been cut pretty badly

2) WE KNEW an attack was imminent

3) WE KNEW that someone coming into the room was an attacker the second we saw him

Let me tell you something about knives (Goshin knows-this is for many of the others)

a) people who know knives don't flash them-you normally don't see them until AFTER you are cut

b) waiving a knife around like that dude in BUTCH CASSIDY and THE SUNDANCE KID is not realistic when dealing with people who actually know knives- maybe nutcase psychotics but not hard core criminals

c) most good knife guys carry a knife in a reverse grip so the blade lies along their arm-not much to see

d) good knifes-like Randalls Cold Steel, Benchmade, Gerbers, Kabars etc Cut deep without much force behind them. a guy I used to shoot with a lot was SF in the Nam. His brother was a door gunner on an attack copter. One of the other door gunners carried a Randall #1 on his web gear. That man's Hughey got shot down and he was thrown out on the LZ on his back with his rifle lost. A NVA came over to stick him with a bayonet and the door gunners slashed at Charlie's leg with the Randall hoping to cut the guy bad enough to stop Charlie from sticking him. The 7" randall did more than that. It went completely through the leg and into the other leg. the NVA bled out before the door gunner's pilot shot the NVA through the head with his 38

TurtleDude said:

I attended some high level training years ago-it was a "hot classroom". at one point the instructor told everyone to go outside and clear their weapons, and any backups they had. we each checked classmates's weapons -three times each. The instructor told us sometime in the next 40 minutes someone with a knife would come in and "attack us". so you have a room of 15 guys, most were experienced LEOs, and several of us were at least Class B or higher IPSC shooters. I at the time was the fastest "pin" shooter in that part of the country with a record that was the national standard. well about 10 minutes into the lecture some guy in body armor (just in case) and a rubber knife comes running from the back door. IN a real life situation he would have been shot 50 or 60 times but he was able to "cut" 7 of the students before some of us sitting in the farthest area from the door had drawn and "shot" him.

now what does this show

1) 15 highly trained pistol shots-12 of whom had actually shot someone in the past would have killed this guy but a bunch of us would have been cut pretty badly

2) WE KNEW an attack was imminent

3) WE KNEW that someone coming into the room was an attacker the second we saw him

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The drill, is just that, a drill. Add in the variables the results change.

ric27 said:

The drill, is just that, a drill. Add in the variables the results change.

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true, knives tend to be the weapons of young men. Now even a guy who was pretty much an average HS track athlete (I'd place in dual meets, sometimes in invitationals but I wasn't all city) like me could run 100 yards in 11 seconds or so (I was a 800-1600 guy). that means almost 10 yards in a second. now lets say from a standing start 7 yards in a second. that's 21 feet. now if I am waiting for the timer to go off in an IPSC match I could draw a Custom Colt 45 out of a holster and shoot a man sized target twice in under a second. But If i am an average cop walking down the street with my Glock in a level III retention holster (cops are far more likely to get shot from some mope grabbing their guns than losing a "quick draw" gun fight. So you are talking at least a second and a half-and more like 2-3 seconds for that cop to get his gun out and fire it

he's been cut 3-4 times by then

ric27 said:

No need to be a smart ass

Merely the sudden flashing of a knife is frequently enough to strike fear into your opponent, causing him to lose confidence and surrender

Knife fighting isn't about fencing. The odds of getting into a knife on knife fight is slim and if it happens, you ****ed up everything from the moment you opened your eyes in the morning, dude

I **** you not....in close-quarters fighting there is no more deadly weapon than a ****ing knife

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I was threatened once. I didn't like it. All I had was hands and feet. I was lucky. I lived.

liblady said:

oh boy, i don't know. in close quarters, couldn't they have shot him elsewhere on his body?

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No. Center of mass until he goes down. Things happen very fast at close range.

Anyway. He is dead. Problem solved.

What lessons can we learn?

Misterveritis said:

No. Center of mass until he goes down. Things happen very fast at close range.

Anyway. He is dead. Problem solved.

What lessons can we learn?

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don't bring a knife to a gunfight unless you are better trained than the gunfighters and you create a fight that is advantageous to your weapon

TurtleDude said:

don't bring a knife to a gunfight unless you are better trained than the gunfighters and you create a fight that is advantageous to your weapon

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I was thinking of other kinds of lessons we might learn about dealing with problem children.

Bring the knife to the gunfight. Bring a gun (or two or three) as well.

Misterveritis said:

I was thinking of other kinds of lessons we might learn about dealing with problem children.

Bring the knife to the gunfight. Bring a gun (or two or three) as well.

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its a parent's duty and obligation to make sure the parent's offspring does not become a problem child

TurtleDude said:

its a parent's duty and obligation to make sure the parent's offspring does not become a problem child

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Maybe so. Still we have to deal with the world as it is. Taking a life, even when justified leaves its bruises and scars. There will always be very difficult situations. Rehearsal is one way to develop the right responses.

So what might be learned?

Misterveritis said:

Maybe so. Still we have to deal with the world as it is. Taking a life, even when justified leaves its bruises and scars. There will always be very difficult situations. Rehearsal is one way to develop the right responses.

So what might be learned?

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speed is nice but accuracy is fatal

attributed to Wyatt Earp

later

TurtleDude said:

speed is nice but accuracy is fatal

attributed to Wyatt Earp

later

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LOL. We can shot to kill reasonably well. Most people prefer not to.

Me? I prefer nuclear weapons if I have to use them.

Misterveritis said:

LOL. We can shot to kill reasonably well. Most people prefer not to.

Me? I prefer nuclear weapons if I have to use them.

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Yeah use a nuke to defend your house from a robbery

what house?

Misterveritis said:

I was threatened once. I didn't like it. All I had was hands and feet. I was lucky. I lived.

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My point was, and is, DON'T GET INTO KNIFE FIGHTS. The only knife fight, you will want to get into is one where, you are the only one with a knife. If not, you run and use a barricade and keep on running


To think there is NO POSSIBILITY or the opposite a CERTAINTY of escaping unscathed is stupid.

MrVicchio said:

It's called shyness, and is just an excuse to put kids on brain pills.

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Wrong. Absolutely wrong. There is a LOT more to Aspergers than just being shy or socially awkward. BIG difference. Someone who is shy is generally uncomfortable in new social situations... but can manage them in an appropriate fashion. Someone with Asperger's will handle those new social situations... and often FAMILIAR social situations in inappropriate ways. They have difficulty picking up non-verbal cues and don't understand the nuances of vocal inflection or implying. They will overfocus on one or a few specific topics, often ignoring the normal morphing of a conversation from one issue to another. The restrictive interests along with repetitive behaviors are key. They tend to be self-centered in their conversations. ANY slight is taken personally and they will then condemn the person as "bad".

"Shyness" is not a synonym for Aspergers AT ALL. As far as medication, as far as I know, there is no medication that treats Aspergers, though medication can be used when there is a co-morbid disorder such as anxiety or depression.

MaggieD said:

This is a tragedy. Who's at fault here? Anyone?

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The itching fingered cops, I mean really they all use the "less than lethal" tasers along with pepper spray on everyone else. I have spoke of cops using their firearms for years and always have felt that once they fire their weapon in the line of duty it would end their career in law enforcement as a safety net.

MaggieD said:

This is a tragedy. Who's at fault here? Anyone?

Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder - chicagotribune.com

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Yes this is a tragedy. And if ultimately some blame must be placed I would put it on the mother (and father if he is even in the picture). This kid has obviously been violent before and should have been sent somewhere so that he never had access to any potential weapon and where he could be with someone that could control him if he ever got out of hand. The fact that it shows that the mother couldn't handle her son's problems (as evidenced by the multiple calls for police intervention) lends weight to this fact. It was her duty to make sure that her son was properly cared for and to make sure that he could hurt no one, including himself.

I know many would prolly disagree with me believeing that we shouldn't place blame on a victim, but sometimes victims DO bring things upon themselves.

Edit note: I wouldn't place any of the blame on the cops for sure. Thier life was obviously in danger and everyone, regardless if they are a cop or not, has a right to meet deadly force with deadly force.