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Thread: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

  1. #81
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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It has been determined that it is not feasible to "shoot to wound", as in the old cowboy shoot-im-in-the-shoulder trick, in almost any circumstances. It is virtually a universal principle in US law enforcement, and US jurisprudence, that shooting is always lethal force and that shooting to wound is both legally indefensible and tactically unsound. Shooting is reserved for lethal force situations, and the standard in the US is "shoot to stop the threat" which typically means shooting at the center chest.

    Before someone brings it up, it is also standard proceedure to shoot and keep on shooting until the threat is obviously ended or the target is clearly disabled. The one-shot "stop" is more myth than reality, unless you get lucky.

    Close quarters situations actually make marksmanship MORE difficult, not less.... the angles change quickly, everything happens very fast, and you have to consider that you or your weapon could be grabbed by the perp.


    Most departments SOP is that if a knife-armed suspect is within 25' of police and moving forward with apparent aggression, he is to be shot.
    thanks for the explanation.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Now you're being uncivil and irrational.
    I've been stabbed several times over the course of my career and I've seen guys stabbed twenty plus times fighting aggressively (street fight) while being cuffed.

    I watched a guy have a screw driver broken off in his sternum, a quarter inch from punching a hole in his aorta, attack us and fight hard until restrained by us.

    Hell, we even had a guy slashed across his face with a razor blade, losing the eye in the process, continue to attack his attackers (bar fight) even as we were trying to restrain him. His wound took almost two hundred stitches to close

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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    I've been stabbed several times over the course of my career and I've seen guys stabbed twenty plus times fighting aggressively (street fight) while being cuffed.

    I watched a guy have a screw driver broken off in his sternum, a quarter inch from punching a hole in his aorta, attack us and fight hard until restrained by us.

    Hell, we even had a guy slashed across his face with a razor blade, losing the eye in the process, continue to attack his attackers (bar fight) even as we were trying to restrain him. His wound took almost two hundred stitches to close
    Now you're being pointless.
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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Moderator's Warning:
    Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder Let's try to keep the penis-fencing and baiting to a minimum, gents. The topic is the story and issues directly related to it... let's keep it relevant.

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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It has been determined that it is not feasible to "shoot to wound", as in the old cowboy shoot-im-in-the-shoulder trick, in almost any circumstances. It is virtually a universal principle in US law enforcement, and US jurisprudence, that shooting is always lethal force and that shooting to wound is both legally indefensible and tactically unsound. Shooting is reserved for lethal force situations, and the standard in the US is "shoot to stop the threat" which typically means shooting at the center chest.

    Before someone brings it up, it is also standard proceedure to shoot and keep on shooting until the threat is obviously ended or the target is clearly disabled. The one-shot "stop" is more myth than reality, unless you get lucky.

    Close quarters situations actually make marksmanship MORE difficult, not less.... the angles change quickly, everything happens very fast, and you have to consider that you or your weapon could be grabbed by the perp.


    Most departments SOP is that if a knife-armed suspect is within 25' of police and moving forward with apparent aggression, he is to be shot.
    I attended some high level training years ago-it was a "hot classroom". at one point the instructor told everyone to go outside and clear their weapons, and any backups they had. we each checked classmates's weapons -three times each. The instructor told us sometime in the next 40 minutes someone with a knife would come in and "attack us". so you have a room of 15 guys, most were experienced LEOs, and several of us were at least Class B or higher IPSC shooters. I at the time was the fastest "pin" shooter in that part of the country with a record that was the national standard. well about 10 minutes into the lecture some guy in body armor (just in case) and a rubber knife comes running from the back door. IN a real life situation he would have been shot 50 or 60 times but he was able to "cut" 7 of the students before some of us sitting in the farthest area from the door had drawn and "shot" him.

    now what does this show

    1) 15 highly trained pistol shots-12 of whom had actually shot someone in the past would have killed this guy but a bunch of us would have been cut pretty badly

    2) WE KNEW an attack was imminent

    3) WE KNEW that someone coming into the room was an attacker the second we saw him

    Let me tell you something about knives (Goshin knows-this is for many of the others)

    a) people who know knives don't flash them-you normally don't see them until AFTER you are cut

    b) waiving a knife around like that dude in BUTCH CASSIDY and THE SUNDANCE KID is not realistic when dealing with people who actually know knives- maybe nutcase psychotics but not hard core criminals

    c) most good knife guys carry a knife in a reverse grip so the blade lies along their arm-not much to see

    d) good knifes-like Randalls Cold Steel, Benchmade, Gerbers, Kabars etc Cut deep without much force behind them. a guy I used to shoot with a lot was SF in the Nam. His brother was a door gunner on an attack copter. One of the other door gunners carried a Randall #1 on his web gear. That man's Hughey got shot down and he was thrown out on the LZ on his back with his rifle lost. A NVA came over to stick him with a bayonet and the door gunners slashed at Charlie's leg with the Randall hoping to cut the guy bad enough to stop Charlie from sticking him. The 7" randall did more than that. It went completely through the leg and into the other leg. the NVA bled out before the door gunner's pilot shot the NVA through the head with his 38

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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I attended some high level training years ago-it was a "hot classroom". at one point the instructor told everyone to go outside and clear their weapons, and any backups they had. we each checked classmates's weapons -three times each. The instructor told us sometime in the next 40 minutes someone with a knife would come in and "attack us". so you have a room of 15 guys, most were experienced LEOs, and several of us were at least Class B or higher IPSC shooters. I at the time was the fastest "pin" shooter in that part of the country with a record that was the national standard. well about 10 minutes into the lecture some guy in body armor (just in case) and a rubber knife comes running from the back door. IN a real life situation he would have been shot 50 or 60 times but he was able to "cut" 7 of the students before some of us sitting in the farthest area from the door had drawn and "shot" him.

    now what does this show

    1) 15 highly trained pistol shots-12 of whom had actually shot someone in the past would have killed this guy but a bunch of us would have been cut pretty badly

    2) WE KNEW an attack was imminent

    3) WE KNEW that someone coming into the room was an attacker the second we saw him
    The drill, is just that, a drill. Add in the variables the results change.

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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    The drill, is just that, a drill. Add in the variables the results change.

    true, knives tend to be the weapons of young men. Now even a guy who was pretty much an average HS track athlete (I'd place in dual meets, sometimes in invitationals but I wasn't all city) like me could run 100 yards in 11 seconds or so (I was a 800-1600 guy). that means almost 10 yards in a second. now lets say from a standing start 7 yards in a second. that's 21 feet. now if I am waiting for the timer to go off in an IPSC match I could draw a Custom Colt 45 out of a holster and shoot a man sized target twice in under a second. But If i am an average cop walking down the street with my Glock in a level III retention holster (cops are far more likely to get shot from some mope grabbing their guns than losing a "quick draw" gun fight. So you are talking at least a second and a half-and more like 2-3 seconds for that cop to get his gun out and fire it

    he's been cut 3-4 times by then

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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    No need to be a smart ass

    Merely the sudden flashing of a knife is frequently enough to strike fear into your opponent, causing him to lose confidence and surrender

    Knife fighting isn't about fencing. The odds of getting into a knife on knife fight is slim and if it happens, you ****ed up everything from the moment you opened your eyes in the morning, dude

    I **** you not....in close-quarters fighting there is no more deadly weapon than a ****ing knife
    I was threatened once. I didn't like it. All I had was hands and feet. I was lucky. I lived.

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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    oh boy, i don't know. in close quarters, couldn't they have shot him elsewhere on his body?
    No. Center of mass until he goes down. Things happen very fast at close range.

    Anyway. He is dead. Problem solved.

    What lessons can we learn?

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    Re: Family: Boy, 15, shot to death after attacking police had autism disorder

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    No. Center of mass until he goes down. Things happen very fast at close range.

    Anyway. He is dead. Problem solved.

    What lessons can we learn?
    don't bring a knife to a gunfight unless you are better trained than the gunfighters and you create a fight that is advantageous to your weapon

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